What psychotherapy is not

"Sometimes tender, sometimes a barbarian, but above all, a human being" – this is how we can describe today's guest, psychotherapist and philosopher Jacek Masłowski. Over his years of practice, he has explored both the specifics of his profession and the myths surrounding it. Can you become addicted to psychotherapy? Or can it actually do us harm? What should the relationship with a therapist look like, and what exactly is it – a friendship, counseling, a contract, or something else entirely? These and other questions are answered in the latest episode of Andrzej Silczuk's series, "Well Said."  

1. 00:00:00 Introduction
2. 00:04:37 Why do we start psychotherapy?
3. 00:07:14 What type of relationship is therapy?
4. 00:09:48 Therapy vs. counseling
5. 00:14:59 The foundations of psychotherapy
6. 00:16:46 Does psychotherapy always go back to childhood?
7. 00:22:32 Challenges in the therapist-patient relationship
8. 00:25:06 Therapist supervision
9. 00:28:12 Patient concerns
10. 00:31:12 The relationship in Gestalt therapy
11. 00:36:25 Is psychotherapy just talking?
12. 00:37:58 Psychotherapy for men
13. 00:52:04 The "trend" of psychotherapy
14. 00:56:04 ADHD overdiagnosis – fact or myth
15. 00:59:48 Can therapy do harm?
16. 01:06:45 Mutual interest between therapist and patient
17. 01:12:56 How to start therapy?

Transcript

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: Welcome back to the Multi.Life space for the "Well Said" program. My name is Andrzej Silczuk, and today in the studio with me is Jacek Masłowski. He is a psychotherapist, philosopher, and someone with whom I share a long professional history, as we have collaborated on many projects, including working with patients. I have immense trust in him. He is the founder of the Masculinum Foundation, which focuses not only on sexuality and identity but also on the emotional well-being of men. Sometimes tender, sometimes a "barbarian." Jacek, I am very happy to have you with us today. You are an experienced publicist and author, and today I would like to talk to you about psychotherapy.

Jacek Masłowski: I am happy to be here too. Thank you, Andrzej, for the invitation.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Quite recently, I had a conversation with Joanna Gutral where we wondered whether bosses are sometimes afraid of psychologists. It turns out from that conversation that a lot of myths have built up around psychology and psychotherapy. One such myth about seeking psychotherapeutic care is that only people who are mentally ill go to a psychotherapist. Is that true?

Jacek Masłowski: There are people, yes, there are individuals who do suffer from some kind of disorder, although from my personal practice, I can say that this accounts for maybe up to 5% of all the people I have had the opportunity to work with over nearly 15 or 16 years of psychotherapeutic practice.

Mostly, these are people who are simply dealing with a very wide spectrum of life, relational, professional, and health challenges that affect their emotional well-being, their psyche, and their mental condition, and they make up the vast majority of people who use psychotherapy.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: What is the motivation of a person seeking help from a psychotherapist? Why do people go to therapy?

Jacek Masłowski: I see three main motivations. The first is that people come for feedback. Specifically, they come to learn something about themselves, to get to know themselves better, and to see if their way of thinking about themselves is supportive or perhaps undermining.

This is, of course, a big, broad topic. The second main reason is that they have secrets. They have some kind of difficulty within them that weighs heavily on them. At the same time, they lack the relational space to share this difficulty, or they believe they lack it, and to a large extent, it burdens their psyche and causes them to have rather superficial relationships. Yet, once they come to psychotherapy and build trust in the therapist, and the therapeutic relationship is established and becomes quite deep, they release that burden at their own pace. Interesting things happen there later, too.

The third main reason is to look into one's "shadow." It looks more or less like this: a person begins to notice that certain repetitive situations or patterns are appearing in their life. For example, they have lost their job for the umpteenth time, or they have heard the same words from a partner who left them, and so on. And these people slowly start asking themselves whether it is a matter of something external, or perhaps they are participating in it in some way, maybe they are provoking it somehow.

And that is the third motivation, which leads us to look into the "shadow zone" for certain mechanisms and their causes that determine the various behaviors these people notice through these symptoms. And those are, in my opinion, the three main "drawers of reasons," if I may call them that.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: So, knowledge, secrets…

Jacek Masłowski: Knowledge, secrets—secrets meaning a burden—and at the same time, an attempt to take control of the unconscious parts of oneself that are currently controlling one's life.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: So, some form of awareness.

Jacek Masłowski: Exactly.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I see. That middle part really resonated with me, because I started thinking about how it reflects a profound sense of loneliness.

Jacek Masłowski: That’s exactly right. The therapeutic relationship, by its very nature—due to the trust, the confidentiality, and the fact that it is an asymmetrical relationship—is unique. The therapist does not expect anything in return from their client or patient, depending on the modality, for what they provide. In everyday relationships, there is usually a principle of equivalence.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Like between friends.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, I get something from you, you get something from me, and in the long run, we both feel that the relationship is balanced, that the exchange is fair. But that’s not the case in a therapeutic relationship, because the therapist is in a different position.

I call this position the "super-parent." A "super-parent" is someone who tries their best to be responsive to the needs expressed by the person in therapy, without the possibility of reciprocation. This is one of the reasons why psychotherapy is paid; the money serves as an equivalent for the exchange that would otherwise have to take place in ordinary relationships.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: So it’s a transaction.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, it is a transaction, and it somewhat relieves—I say somewhat, because not everyone in therapy experiences it that way—the pressure to reciprocate, which is based on the rule of reciprocity, one of the most powerful principles of social influence.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: That’s very important, because I think we’re touching on a common myth—that I shouldn't burden a "stranger" (and I use that term loosely) with my difficulties, problems, secrets, or lack of awareness, because I’ll owe them something. Pointing out that the "psychotherapeutic person" is compensated balances the transaction. It also applies to situations where I might be a consumer of subscription-based services; even if my employer pays for my therapy, I am not indebted to the therapist because the therapist has been paid. That is significant.

Jacek Masłowski: That equivalent is very important.

Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: Right. Thinking about those "three drawers"—the areas clients come to us with—does that help define what psychotherapy actually is?

Jacek Masłowski: It’s more about defining what it isn't.

Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: Please, go ahead.

Jacek Masłowski: Let's look at it from that angle. Psychotherapy is certainly not psychological counseling, nor is it any other form of advice-giving.

Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: And what do you mean by "counseling"?

Jacek Masłowski: Look, it’s very common for people who come to psychotherapy to have this idea that "the therapist will tell me how to live."

Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: Right, like "Should I stay with her, or should I stay with him?"

Jacek Masłowski: "Am I doing the right thing or the wrong thing? Is this good or is this bad? Am I okay or am I not okay? Should I do this or should I do that?"

Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: We ask ChatGPT about that today.

Jacek Masłowski: True, but ChatGPT still hallucinates, whereas with a therapist, there’s a chance to actually talk it through. People are indeed using chatbots, but that’s a separate issue. In my opinion, it’s very dangerous if you try to replace a person with a chatbot. But getting back to the point—first and foremost, it is not about giving advice. The second thing is that psychotherapy, or perhaps more accurately the psychotherapist, is not someone who "cures" you.

Because the psychotherapeutic process, as I understand it, is a process of self-healing in the company of someone who is there to support you. It happens that people come to sessions—one, two, or even for a year—and say, "Damn, nothing is happening, nothing is changing." And it doesn't change.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: You aren't changing anything for me.

Jacek Masłowski: That is essentially an underlying accusation that you, the therapist, should be the one to make me feel better, or help me build better relationships, or whatever it may be.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: But you know, it’s so obvious that people have this service-oriented expectation; they want it to be that way.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, but the service isn't about the therapist being a demiurge who manages your life space; rather, the therapist is someone who strengthens your processes of becoming autonomous in life. Because all those statements I mentioned—"What should I do?" or "You aren't causing change in my life"—are statements rooted in dependency.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk:  Autonomization means independence.

Jacek Masłowski: And entering into autonomy simply means that I am the author of my own life, meaning I make choices consciously, or at least as consciously as I can. But I am also open to the consequences of those choices—not consequences understood as a burden, but rather...

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: …as authorship.

Jacek Masłowski: …as authorship, but also as outcomes, as my own growth, quite simply. Because every experience we encounter in life is my perception. It is there so that we can grow. Although the word "growth" is understood in many different ways today, I believe that is why we receive these experiences in life. And the therapist is someone who accompanies me in this process. Someone in whom I can see myself reflected, a relationship in which I can see myself, and where I can practice something in a way that is safe for me, such as expressing anger that I couldn't express in the relationships I’ve been in until now, from childhood right up to my current relationship.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: And here you can get angry and then talk about it, too.

Jacek Masłowski: Exactly, and this is where the therapist co-creates a space with you to explore what you fear, what you have blocked, or what is unfamiliar to you. This is primarily what I call a "training relationship"—where you place the therapist in front of you to practice certain behaviors—within the boundaries defined by the contract and social norms, of course—and try out forms of expression that were previously outside your range of possibilities.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: But they happened, for example, by accident, and you didn't know why.

Jacek Masłowski: That could also be the case, for example.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I understand that this further emphasizes the transactional nature, because if you, as a therapist, are my "punching bag"—we'll put that in quotation marks, of course...

Jacek Masłowski: I would say not even necessarily in quotation marks, because it really is a bit like that.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Literally—a punching bag... Formally, if I looked at the patterns, I could feel a huge sense of guilt that I had practiced on you.

Jacek Masłowski: That’s one thing. And two, being aware of this rule of reciprocity, you would still have a block against exploring a new form of relationship, a new form of being together in that relationship, because of those mechanisms that are constantly holding you back.

But here you have someone you don't just pay—that's not the main focus, I feel. You are aware that this is a person who is ready for this. They are professionally prepared, they are emotionally prepared. And you come for a specific reason; you aren't coming to a friend, you aren't coming to a mentor, you aren't coming to a parent to ask what you are allowed to do and what you aren't—I mean, you can do that, but a therapist who is grounded in their role won't go along with it at all. They will reflect it back to you, sometimes explaining things or using psychoeducation along the way to show why they are reflecting it. And this largely allows you to build that specific form of relationship I mentioned earlier—a relationship that is safe, which allows you to truly explore yourself in a relationship—in a new way, under safe conditions.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I think there is one more variable: it is a relationship in which the therapist is oriented with positive intent toward the client.

Jacek Masłowski: Definitely.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: It is very important that it is positive by definition. This means that nothing that happens during the therapy will be directed against the psychotherapy recipient.

Jacek Masłowski: You know, I was taught that psychotherapy has two very important foundations: it is non-judgmental, meaning I don't judge your behavior—I can tell you how I feel about it, but I won't tell you what you did right or wrong. And it is amoral, meaning I won't tell you what is good or bad. Aside from legal requirements, of course—if you come in and say you’ve just committed a crime or intend to, that’s a different story, as there is a legal obligation to notify the appropriate authorities.

However, as a rule, your thoughts on sex, religion, relationships, how you treat your body, or your views on minorities—none of that falls within the scope of the therapeutic relationship; it is not subject to any judgment. It’s more of a situation where you can communicate these things, and then, with the help of a therapist, examine where they come from, what they do to you, why you hold them, and whether you still choose to follow that path or not. But that’s just one example. In reality, therapy is a super-rich space for self-exploration.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Alright, let’s move on to the next myth. Is psychotherapy always about digging into your childhood? Because, wait—most of us have had a childhood that was more or less positive. Some of us have had experiences that were difficult. And right now, I don’t feel ready to talk about that at all. Sometimes that acts as a barrier to seeing a psychotherapist, because I might want to talk about feeling undervalued at work, but I don’t want to touch on family issues.

Jacek Masłowski: Again, I’ll draw from my own experience: not always, but very often, and it depends a bit on why we are actually going to therapy. My experience shows that therapy is a bit like a visit to an orthopedist.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Interesting.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, you come in and say, "Doctor, my back hurts." And the doctor says, "Okay, you know what? Please get an X-ray and come back with the images so we can take a look." You go, get the images, come back to the orthopedist, put them on the table, and he examines them. "You know what? Your spine is perfectly fine. I’m not sure what I can do for you here, because it’s okay."

A bit disappointed, you turn around to leave, and the orthopedist looks at you and says, "Wait, wait, hold on a second. Walk back and forth one more time. You’re limping a little, I feel. Didn’t you break your leg at some point?" And the person says, "Gee, I don’t remember breaking my leg. Well, actually, now that you mention it, when I was six... Okay, let’s get an X-ray of that leg."

And that shows me, in my therapeutic practice, that we often come with a symptom where the source is not where we expect it to be. And it doesn’t have to be childhood at all. It all depends on what the subject of the therapy is. You know, if you have trauma related to horseback riding, your relationship with your mother might not have much to do with it. It could be that you just fell off a horse three years ago and broke your leg. We deal with that, not what you were doing when you were three. But very often, it is indeed in childhood—and let’s emphasize this, because it’s another myth that it’s mainly "our parents who did something to us"—we completely forget that we later go to school.

And here, again—I’ve been working mainly with men lately, actually only with men—the sources of their problems related to functioning in the world are roughly 50-50.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Peer bullying, right?

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, very much so. And the kind that was completely unaddressed. So, childhood is actually the area from the moment I was born—because sometimes the source of trauma is there—all the way to young adulthood. First contacts with a girl who rejected me when I told her I liked her, and so on. So, it’s more about the past, not necessarily just childhood, though it is often childhood, yes.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I’m thinking about that fall from the horse—perhaps there’s also a background where someone struggles to cope with failure and setbacks.

Jacek Masłowski: That may be true, but you know, it all depends on... Honestly, I look at psychotherapy like an onion. You can keep peeling it forever.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Like an ogre, just like an onion. Psychotherapy is the same.

Jacek Masłowski: Exactly, psychotherapy too. A proper therapeutic process. You can always find something else. The question is whether it really makes sense to strip everything down to the core. I don't think so. That’s why, again, I was taught to establish a therapeutic contract and define a specific goal—the outcome we want to achieve. I usually focus on that outcome rather than everything I see. Unless it serves a purpose, something I feel is worth bringing into the process and discussing, then sure. But honestly, you could end up never leaving therapy. Besides, we both know people who have been in therapy for 15 years and there’s always something going on, right?

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: And that immediately leads to the question: can psychotherapy ever be finished?

Jacek Masłowski: Well, you can finish psychotherapy for a specific issue.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Depending on the issue, I understand. So, are there situations where, for some people, the psychotherapeutic process will indeed last that long?

Jacek Masłowski: That may be the case, though you have to be careful here. Because if you are in a therapeutic relationship with someone who came to you for help, on one hand, the process can evolve as you uncover new sources that are causing the patient's or client's current life difficulties. But there are also people who are confluent—they just merge with you. They have a very hard time letting go of the relationship.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: OK, letting go of it. They get attached.

Jacek Masłowski: I’ve had a few experiences where… They get attached? Not necessarily. Some do get attached, but there are also those who react with anxiety to separation.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: They become inseparable.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, they become more attached. I have a therapeutic relationship in mind right now, a process that lasted almost five years, where a person came in with a clearly defined goal. After two years, we were approaching it; we were very close to the finish line. We had already started talking about how we needed to slowly prepare for ending the process…

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: And then, "bam!"

Jacek Masłowski: And there was such a regression that this person retreated so far in how they experienced their life and functioned within it, saying: "Look, I can't leave. You have to help me."

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: "You have to do it."

Jacek Masłowski: You have to help me. And those are very difficult situations.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: I understand.

Jacek Masłowski: As I said, it requires a great deal of mindfulness.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: Alright. In that case, is there any justification for the fear that one might let a psychotherapist become dependent on them?

Jacek Masłowski: That one might let a psychotherapist become dependent on them? That the therapist might become dependent on the patient?

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: That the patient feels dependent on working with their psychotherapist.

Jacek Masłowski: That can certainly happen, too. There are such people.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: And what would that involve?

Jacek Masłowski: Among other things, it can be linked to that separation anxiety.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: So, on the part of the patient or client, but I also understand it could be on the part of the person providing psychotherapy who doesn't set boundaries or monitor themselves.

Jacek Masłowski: I think that would be a very unhealthy way for a therapist to function, and if that is the case, it probably means that something in their supervision process, for example, didn't work as it should have.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Tell me about supervision, because that is also super important. I was thinking that for some clients, coming to a psychotherapist with their problem—we all have our peak of pain in different circumstances, and we have experiences we want to share—they are very afraid that the therapist, or perhaps during the process they reach a point where they could let go and talk about their experience, but they worry and start to care for the therapist, fearing that their story might hurt them.

Jacek Masłowski: That can happen, too. It happens quite often.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: So, who is a supervisor?

Jacek Masłowski: I think a supervisor is… Maybe I’ll start by explaining why we have supervisors, as it will be easier to understand who they are. You see, it’s always worth keeping in mind that the most important, primary tool in a therapist's work is the therapist themselves. Not techniques, not tools, not methodology, but me.

Meaning my personality, my emotions, my beliefs, my values, and so on. Because I am a living human being there, yet in a very specific role—which we’ve already touched upon—it means that what happens in the process also affects me. I am not just the person helping to experience these corrective things, for example; I can also feel sadness, I can get angry, I can get scared, and so on.

The point is that sharing many of my own reactions to what is happening within the relationship would simply cause a great deal of harm to that relationship. If I tell a person who comes to me feeling anxious and seeking support that I have just been frightened by something, I am effectively undoing a lot of work or making it impossible to achieve the results we came here for.

And now, about supervision and the supervisor. The relationship with a supervisor is a relationship with someone who, first of all, acts as a mirror for me, reflecting what is happening in the process I am participating in.

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: It’s a cycle, right? For the client, the therapist is a mirror of themselves. And I understand that for the therapist, their supervisor is their mirror?

Jacek Masłowski: Exactly. They help me see what is happening inside me, why I reacted that way, or how I can model certain behaviors for the sake of the process rather than for my own benefit. The second thing is that sometimes I simply might not know what to do. Because I am caught up in an experience within that relationship, and I might see three different options but don't want to experiment on the client. Instead, I want to examine it with someone who is a "super-visor"—someone above me who sees it from a meta-level. They can ask me questions that wouldn't occur to me, and I can have a dress rehearsal in supervision: what would happen if I went this way, what might occur, why would I go there, what results would I expect, and so on.

So, supervision seems to be, I would say, one of the fundamental tools of a therapist's work. Its goal is, first, to maintain the hygiene of one's own work, which prevents you from burning out too quickly—because this is a very draining profession. But it is equally important to ensure that the relationship remains in that specific style: I am here for you, and I do not want to take for myself certain aspects of the relationship that naturally develop here.

An attractive woman comes in and starts seducing you as a man, and since you aren't made of concrete, your body reacts to it, right? You feel emotions, you have fantasies, and so on. But you know you cannot act on them here because the relationship isn't meant for that; in my opinion, going down that path would be a crime, an abuse, and so on. So, you take this situation to your supervisor. You don't pretend it isn't happening, because it is—and you can examine it there. What of yours is being triggered? What is this about? How can you model this within yourself, in the relationship, and so on?

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: So I understand that the relationship with a supervisor is very similar. Meaning, you don't get advice on what to do, but you hear your own words and can find a solution for yourself in the presence of another person?

Jacek Masłowski: Advice on "what" to do, no. But you can get advice on "how" to do it, because sometimes you might forget certain technical aspects or have a skewed perspective. Your knowledge, which you learned years ago in school or during a specific course, might have become outdated, and you can receive a correction—for example, that a certain technique is better performed in a specific way because that is what the craft dictates. So, in that sense, yes. Not "what," but rather "how"—how to approach it?

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: I come to a psychotherapist and I'm afraid that I'm annoying them, or that I will annoy them with my behavior or what I say. What should I do about that?

Jacek Masłowski: Who? You or me?

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: I am the client, I come to you, the psychotherapist, and I'm afraid I'll annoy you. I really wouldn't want to do that.

Jacek Masłowski: And are you telling me about it, or not?

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: That’s a good question. If I have those feelings and concerns, I understand it’s worth talking about them?

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, but also notice that if you have such concerns, the fear itself can be a blocker that prevents you from speaking up, because you might be afraid of making me angry.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: That’s true. Or exposing myself to judgment.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, exactly. That’s why I asked whether you tell me about it or not. Do you bring it up? Does it come up in the process? Because if you bring it up, it’s much easier. We can start looking at it from different angles. Where does it come from? Is it some kind of transference? Is it some kind of...

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: What is transference?

Jacek Masłowski: Transference is, in short, a mechanism where I don’t see you, but rather someone you remind me of in some way.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: For example, a father.

Jacek Masłowski: For example, a father, and my emotional reactions and beliefs are triggered toward you as if you were that person, rather than Andrzej.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: So, in fact, I’m afraid that I’ll anger my father, who will hit me for it, but I’m here and I’m projecting, transferring those emotions onto you, and my head starts spinning. Does the fact that I said it mean we’ve built a good relationship?

Jacek Masłowski: Probably, yes. It primarily means that you are either starting to feel safe or already do. Because if you bring it up, even though it’s risky for you, you’re doing it for a reason—either you feel a sense of strength within yourself that gives you a sense of security, or you trust me and don’t see me as a threat, or the relationship is building both of those things at once, which often happens. But when you don’t bring it up, you show it over time. And this is where therapeutic mindfulness is important, which really distinguishes the way of functioning in a therapeutic relationship from an everyday one.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: So you won't get annoyed that I'm bringing anger into this, and you won't react with anger yourself, but rather, I understand, you might name it.

Jacek Masłowski: I'm more likely to notice that you aren't bringing anger.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: That's interesting.

Jacek Masłowski: Well, because you're afraid to express anger, fearing you might upset me, or something like that. And now, you know, after we've been working together for a few months, if you tell me about a situation that should naturally make you angry, but you're smiling, for instance, I start to slowly explore that with you.

For example, I might ask you: "Is it always the case that when you talk about situations like this—for instance, that your boss again didn't let you take time off when you wanted—you smile?"

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Yes, interesting…

Jacek Masłowski: It's very often: "Wait, am I smiling?" – "Yes, you just smiled."

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: And that it's inappropriate.

Jacek Masłowski: People often don't even register it because it's habitual. Then we talk about appropriateness and inappropriateness, and from that, slowly—and here I'll use a Gestalt term—a "figure for work" can emerge.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Right, because you are a Gestalt psychotherapist. EMDR as well?

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, I use EMDR techniques to help myself. Well… help myself, in a way.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: At work?

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, at work.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Tell me, what is Gestalt therapy? Because as soon as you used the word "figure," my ears perked up—it sounds like hunting terminology.

Jacek Masłowski: You know, there’s a lot to say. Let me put it this way: it’s a therapy that is very strongly based on relationship, on contact, and on the concept that we are all immersed in a certain background. Yes, a certain background, a field—you in yours, I in mine, and us in ours.

And right now, as we’re talking, topics—let’s call them "figures"—constantly emerge from this field, from this background. They do something, they affect you and me in some way. In short, in Gestalt, we focus on what these "figures" are, what they’re about, what they do to us, and so on, but this happens very strongly through contact and relationship. It is a highly relational therapy.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Highly relational, and it’s also worth noting that it falls under the humanistic approaches, making it part of the "Big Five" of so-called true psychotherapies. Those that are considered canonical.

Jacek Masłowski: "Canonical"—nice.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I use that term intentionally, you know, because it relates to the draft bill on the psychotherapy profession and the identification of these specific psychotherapeutic approaches as those that simply have EBM.

Am I hearing a metric here that might be concerning? Let me explain what I mean. You’re talking about someone starting to express anger after two years, or after a few months of working together—if things went well and mutual trust was built—they start talking about things that are difficult for them. Does psychotherapy have to take a long time?

Jacek Masłowski: It doesn’t have to. It doesn’t have to take a long time because, I’ll emphasize this again, it depends on what you’re coming in for. I have an example of a person who had a very specific professional difficulty. It was strictly a work-related issue. The thing was, this person was in a fairly responsible position and perhaps didn’t know how to act otherwise—I’m getting ahead of myself—but after making a mistake yet again, they received feedback from their supervisor that they should look into why they have trouble asking for help. The difficulty was that this person would sometimes face a new challenge, not know what to do, and even though they worked in a team, they wouldn’t ask for help; instead, they would try to come up with a solution on their own.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Once the word "should" was uttered, she took it upon herself.

Jacek Masłowski: Exactly. And honestly, that was a situation where—and I’ll be clear, this wasn’t deep therapeutic work—but since the core issue was asking for help, it took us about 6 or 7 sessions.

We were able to get to the root of it very quickly, which was a specific incident with her father where he said, "You should be able to handle this on your own." That introject—that belief which became so deeply ingrained in her very being—acted as a mechanism that blocked her from ever reaching out for help.

We didn’t do therapy focused on, say, quality of life or building relationships; it was just about understanding why this was happening, what was blocking her, and then exploring how to change it. After all, you came to me for help—you’re here.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: That is asking for help.

Jacek Masłowski: You’re already asking me, and you’re experiencing the result. In Gestalt, we focus on the here and now. We can create theories and concepts, but what is happening in this relationship right now? You came here for help, so what are you experiencing, and how does that relate to that original statement? And that’s how it slowly starts to fall into place…

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: ...to break a person free from being trapped in the past, from feelings of guilt and helplessness.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, exactly, because we are so often caught in a fantasy or an illusion of that relationship. For example, through transference.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: That’s very interesting. Especially since I understand that the supervisor used practically the same words as her father: "You should be able to handle this."

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, but without the "on your own" part.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: So she added "on your own" herself?

Jacek Masłowski: No, no, no. That supervisor sent them intentionally. I was working at that organization at the time, providing psychological support, and it was common knowledge that people could drop by during my shift to talk about any issues related to their general mental well-being.

And the supervisor said, "Go see Jacek, okay, and figure out what's going on." And honestly, there was a line drawn—if things didn't change, we would have to change your position because it was just too risky to keep functioning that way on your own. It really was too risky.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I see. Is psychotherapy just talking, or is there more to it?

Jacek Masłowski: No, it’s about the connection. Again, it depends on the modality we’re talking about—the style of therapeutic work. As we mentioned, I work in Gestalt, but I also use EMDR. In EMDR, there are very specific procedures and methods that have nothing to do with talking.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Could you briefly explain what EMDR is?

Jacek Masłowski: EMDR stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. Using eye movements through a multi-step procedure, we work with trauma that affects how we function in our daily lives. The eye movement—using a device like the one I’m showing you now, which replaces your hand because after six hours you’d practically pass out—supports the process of working with things that have become "stuck" in the nervous system and aren't processing adaptively.

There are various elements to the whole process, several main phases, and while talking is definitely involved, it’s not the only component, whereas in humanistic approaches, it’s much more central.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: You mentioned that you work with men. Do men actually seek psychotherapy less often?

Jacek Masłowski: That’s in the past. It’s not like that anymore. When I started, I remember being in my penultimate year of Gestalt training and saying that this was the direction I wanted to take. Everyone looked at me and said, "Dude, does that mean you’re going to have a lot of free time?" Back then, psychotherapy was already elite because so few people used it, and men were just a tiny fraction of that group. In fact, I was told directly by my instructor at the time that psychotherapy wasn't for men because men don't go to therapy.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Why?

Jacek Masłowski: I know why now, because once I got into it, it became very clear. It’s the result of many beliefs about masculinity and how men are supposed to function.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Is being soft unmanly?

Jacek Masłowski: First of all, they don't cry. You know, when you come to therapy, it's not to say that everything is great. Secondly, the idea that you have to deal with your difficulties on your own because that's what being a man is about—well, that excludes you again. But that's all in the past now.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: The toxic definition of masculinity. I take it that's somewhat behind us now?

Jacek Masłowski: I generally don't like that term. In my opinion, "toxic masculinity" or "definition of masculinity" is too broad a generalization. I prefer to point out very specific things that, in various ways of looking at masculinity, actually don't help men or the relationships they are in. "Toxic masculinity" is not something I support.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Could you give me an example of that?

Jacek Masłowski: Well, exactly, these kinds of beliefs, like the ones we're talking about. And what's more, they don't stem from masculinity at all, but from a single ethos—the warrior ethos. Because if we take the priest's ethos, he can absolutely be sensitive and cry, and it makes no difference to anyone.

That's why I think "toxic masculinity" is an oversimplification, as it misses many nuances and different styles of masculinity that have historically functioned very successfully and continue to do so. But getting back to my point, men used to feel that deciding to go to therapy was like admitting to themselves and others that they were unmanly.

But as I said, that's history. Today, you know, I run a mental health institute, and not only do we happen to have mostly male therapists, but about 90% of the people who come to us for therapy are men.

We also have a psychotherapy school now, surprisingly or not. It will probably be the first psychotherapy school where the majority of students are men, although we are open to women as well. This shows how much of a shift is taking place in men's mentality regarding self-care in general, and mental health in particular. And the main source of motivation for these men—I can say this with full responsibility after 15 or 16 years of work—is modern fatherhood. It's about how these men build relationships with their children, being aware of the wounds they carry from their own fathers and not wanting to pass them on.

You know, there's a sentiment I really like. I think it's extremely important for men, especially those in leadership positions—like a father, a manager, a politician, and so on—that if you have a wound, and you do—most of us have these wounds, if not all—you have two choices in life: you either transmit it, or you transform it.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: That's interesting.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes. And it turns out that more and more men are transforming those wounds.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: That is a beautiful thing.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes. And for me personally, it gives me incredible energy for my work. Perhaps less so at the level of strictly individual psychotherapy, because that involves a very limited number of possible interactions over a given period of time. But with the structures I get involved in, I feel that they help an increasing number of men reach for what allows them to transform those wounds.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I also think about the bubble theory, that we live in a world somewhat distorted by the social sphere we most frequently interact with. And perhaps it’s not a universal truth about men in Poland. Perhaps. And there are people today who find it very difficult, even though times are changing and social awareness—or rather, knowledge—is, in quotes, "at our fingertips" or just a "mouse click away," to go to a psychotherapist. What are men afraid to come to a psychologist with?

Jacek Masłowski: With the act of coming itself.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: With the very fact.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, the very fact, I already mentioned that. We do live in a bubble to some extent, and to some extent we don't. And I want to bring up another experience here, because about a year and a half ago, we started preparing men to lead support groups—not just in Warsaw, but all over Poland, and now even in various places across Europe.

And it is clearly visible that it is indeed much easier to build a support group in Warsaw, Poznań, Kraków, Łódź, or Katowice than in Zgorzelec or Puławy.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Why?

Jacek Masłowski: Precisely because here, the social mass, the movement, and the interactions between people mean that you much more frequently encounter a man who is already on this transformative path. He talks about it, but above all, he demonstrates it through the quality of his life. There has to be a trendsetter everywhere. And in those smaller towns, more and more men are also heading in this direction. Maybe not straight to psychotherapy, because psychotherapy isn't available everywhere either.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: But an interest in psychology.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, but they are more interested in themselves, in their own psyche, and there are various forms of work. And the support groups I’m talking about are, in a way, the first step toward stepping out of that tight corset of various beliefs about masculinity—what it should be like—where men, among other men, begin to learn different attitudes from one another and also experience that there are many different tools and methods for coming out into the light, to put it bluntly, from that basement.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I was thinking that in smaller towns, it’s a bit harder to stay anonymous. So, if I’m the first one to take the step of seeking psychotherapy, and I’m the only one doing it, I might become the "labeled" one—the guy people talk about, saying, "Oh, he’s the weak one."

Jacek Masłowski: That’s true. You know, I don’t live in Warsaw; I live near a county town, and honestly...

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: That’s an interesting phrase—"near a county town."

Jacek Masłowski: I live in the countryside, so definitely. The hub of life, if there is one, would be the county town, Grójec. I’ve noticed that only recently have people in Grójec who have a choice started preferring to go to Warsaw, partly to maintain that anonymity. But things are slowly starting to change locally, which I see in two ways: first, psychotherapy practices are opening up there, and second, there’s an increasing demand—communicated to our organization, for example—for at least one support group to be established there as well.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Okay, but let’s say I’m in a situation where, in my own micro-circle, I see a man struggling. It’s obvious; we all see it. How do you support or convince a partner, parent, father, son, brother, or grandfather to seek help?

Jacek Masłowski: There’s no single answer to that. As we’ve discussed, everyone is different, with their own mindset and their own quality of relationships. From my perspective, the most convincing thing is leading by example. If I’m doing something myself, I can share that—not by saying, "Listen, I see you’re struggling, and I think you should go to therapy," because that often triggers resistance. Instead, if we’re in a relationship—you and I—I might bring it up simply because I like you and value our friendship, and I tell you about a time I was struggling and what I did about it. That is often very liberating.

And I feel that men have a much greater influence on other men than women do. Why? Because—and this is a generalization, of course—while many women look at their partners, brothers, or fathers with genuine care, there’s a common belief among men that women want to "fix" them for their own benefit.

So, if my wife comes to me and says, "Listen, Jacek, I see you’re struggling, maybe you should go to therapy," it feels like she’s telling me I’m broken and need to be fixed. And I don’t really want to do what she wants me to do.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: "You’re not satisfying me, you’re not the person I want you to be"...

Jacek Masłowski: Exactly. And that can build resistance—passive resistance, where I won’t say no to your face, but I’ll "forget," I won’t show up, or I’ll go once and decide it’s not for me.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: On the other hand, going just to comply—because she told me to—is like going to the barber. I might want long hair, but she says, "Get it cut," so I do it, but I’m doing it against my own will.

Jacek Masłowski: Exactly. That’s why the role of men in the lives of such men seems to be very, very important. That is precisely why we do what we do—supporting the support groups that operate in various parts of Poland.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: OK, but I understand that this resistance to going to psychotherapy isn't exclusively male. Women can have difficulty with it, too.

Jacek Masłowski: Of course, it’s a human trait in general, although women are somewhat more inclined to take an interest in themselves. There is one more thing that is very important regarding men, which is practically never talked about, and I think it is one of the key problems—regardless of whether they are afraid to go to therapy or not.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I’m listening.

Jacek Masłowski: Well, the average man lives outside of himself; he doesn't know what is happening within him. He is focused on tasks. This needs to be done, that needs to be done, this needs to be read. We’re going to shoot down planes, or maybe we need to take out a bank loan, and so on. "How do you feel?" "I'm fine." "And what are your needs?" "What needs? Well, I could eat something."

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: "What do I need to take care of?"

Jacek Masłowski: Right? Listen, I’ve been working with men for a long time, and I run a lot of workshops. It’s a specific form of work, and for some time now, we’ve been running workshops—well, we didn't just create them, we’ve already established them—on needs and emotions. These are two separate workshops for men because it turned out that both areas are practically untouched by most men.

They know very little about themselves. If I am living outside of myself, I don't even really know why I would go to psychotherapy. I mean, how is a psychotherapist going to help me pay off a loan? If that’s what I’m focused on, right? Only when you start to get in touch with yourself does the source of motivation to seek some kind of support begin. Not necessarily "help," because in my opinion, there are three main reasons for coming to psychotherapy, and not all of them are about help—in the colloquial sense of the word.

So, men observe themselves to a much lesser degree. There is a quote by Rohr that says men make the mistake of identifying very strongly with achievements and very little with participation. And women are much better at participation. That is, they participate more with themselves, in their own lives, and in their relationships.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: More "here and now"?

Jacek Masłowski: "Here," "now," but as a rule, they definitely see themselves more clearly. They feel, they reflect, they give themselves support. And that is very feminine; it is socially accepted, and men are only just learning this, and society is starting to support it as well.

Until quite recently, the myths we were discussing were widespread. I think the pandemic changed a great deal. I remember watching various TV programs as if it were today, where doctors of various specialties were telling people, including men, that mental health is important and that it needs to be taken care of. And slowly—or rather, not slowly—since the end of the pandemic, we have been observing an avalanche-like increase in men's interest in this area of their mental health, their psychological well-being, and so on. It’s—I can’t even put a number on it, but we’re talking about thousands of percent in growth.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Perhaps the pandemic really put that "do-ability" that men had to the test, and suddenly it turned out there wasn't much they could do other than wait. And that "Peter Pan," his shadow, caught up with him—with his emotions. That shadow you mentioned a moment ago, where all sorts of things are lurking.  

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, I get the impression that because men were locked down, and thus had the number of things they could use to run away from themselves limited, they started to confront what was happening inside them more, as well as in the relationships they often avoid, especially in big cities. You know, you have a wife, a child, but you also have work, the gym, hobbies, dropping people off... Very few people are actually in touch with themselves.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Right, there’s no time.

Jacek Masłowski: There’s no time, and we know why there’s no time.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Exactly, sometimes that might be to avoid having contact.

Jacek Masłowski: Exactly.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Okay, so we have this post-pandemic accelerator. But in the United States 20–30 years ago, that accelerator didn't exist in this form, yet there was a widespread consumption of therapeutic services to some degree. This "trend for psychotherapy" is appearing in Poland now. I’m using the word in quotes on purpose, because it seems to me that it could be a very inaccurate term again. But the question is—is it also your observation that we have started to be significantly more interested in psychotherapy, regardless of gender?

Jacek Masłowski: Are you talking about us—people, Poles—right now?

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: About us—people, Poles.

Jacek Masłowski: Absolutely, definitely. And this has also had a significant impact on what happened to our children during and after the pandemic. As parents, we all know very well that children who were isolated during the pandemic and hidden behind screens began to show clear difficulties in their psychological functioning.

Few parents are able to provide them with real help. Therapy has become a go-to resource, partly because most parents want to ensure their children's well-being and have been seeking support for them. It often turns out that since this is a tool that can support children, it is also a tool that can—and often must—support us, because children are not independent; they are in a dependent relationship with us, their parents. So, it is a broad topic, but yes, definitely, psychotherapy has become, I would say, almost normal in most circles today.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I see, normalized.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, exactly.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: You mentioned this trendsetting, where certain individuals act as a catalyst for others in a given community. Does this create a risk that psychotherapy might become a substitute for spiritual coaching—a form of outsourcing where someone tells you what to do? Leaving aside what people are trying to do with artificial intelligence, is there such a risk?

Jacek Masłowski: Yes and no, because your motivation is one thing, and my willingness to fulfill it as a therapist is another. We are coming back to the beginning of our conversation: if you come to me for coaching but I am a therapist, I work with you in such a way that you realize you won't get coaching from me, but therapy instead. I show you the difference between the two.

But there is another danger, which I feel is a growing problem and is rarely discussed. I mean—and this is my own term for a phenomenon I observe—that therapy is starting to be used not for real change, but to justify certain things.

More and more people in therapy are discovering that their difficulty functioning in life—for example, in relationships, with their boss, or with money—is the result of a "difficult childhood that my parents gave me."

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: It’s an alibi.

Jacek Masłowski: And that’s it. That’s how it is for me now. For example, I am very wary of people who come to therapy and say something like: "I have an autism spectrum diagnosis. I am autistic."

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: And that’s the end of it.

Jacek Masłowski: As soon as I hear "I am autistic," I know that either we won't be able to work together, or the work will take 60 times longer.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: So, someone comes in wearing a label on their sleeve?

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, and that label lets them off the hook when it comes to doing the real work.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: OK, there was a time when that was liberating. We were looking for answers, and if it turned out someone was on the autism spectrum or had other neurodevelopmental disorders like ADHD, we gained an extra tool that helped that person navigate their life with a broader awareness. What went wrong?

Jacek Masłowski: That’s just one example, because you could just as easily have a label like being an Adult Child of an Alcoholic (ACA).

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Right.

Jacek Masłowski: OK, but for many people, just being aware that they are an ACA is enough to...

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: That they are adult children of alcoholics.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, and that explains why their life is the way it is—and "that's OK." In other words, we continue to outsource responsibility, whereas there’s a saying—I believe it’s from PERS-S—that it’s not what someone did to us in the past that matters, but what we do with it now. I get the impression that therapy often reaches the point where it should actually be starting, yet for many, it ends there. "Aha, OK, now I know. I'm an ACA, or that's just how I am." Setting aside the fact that—I don't know if you'll agree with me—there is an overdiagnosis of various conditions, like ADHD, for instance. In my opinion, we are currently seeing an overdiagnosis of these types of issues.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: There are some very interesting studies and commentaries right now suggesting that diagnostic protocols should rely on experienced clinicians. In other words, a diagnosis for neurodevelopmental disorders should be made by someone who has a high volume of such cases and years of clinical experience, so they can distinguish whether we are dealing with a primary neurodevelopmental disorder or, for example, a secondary one—an acquired concentration disorder related to overstimulation. But this brings us back to the same point: is psychotherapy that drags on, or psychotherapy where you get life advice, or psychotherapy where you get a diagnosis right at the start—is that really psychotherapy? That is, do we have a credible, reliable professional practicing as a psychotherapist on the other side?

Jacek Masłowski: I think trying to answer that question would be too much of a simplification. Why? Because you do receive life advice. For example, if you come to me and I suspect you might be struggling with a mental disorder, I give you advice in the form of suggesting that it would be a good idea to get a psychiatric diagnosis.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: But that’s not just a life tip; that’s a specific recommendation.

Jacek Masłowski: It depends on how you look at it, because we were just talking about how a diagnosis can become a life mantra for you, and so on. I see it a bit differently, but the most important thing isn't how I see it, but what I do with it next. Whether something actually serves the client or patient can fall within the spectrum of psychotherapy, provided—and this is where the supervisor's role comes in—that you have really examined exactly what your motives are.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: And your intentions, I take it?

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, intentions, and what effect it might actually have on that person.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: OK, fantastic. So, one of the questions worth asking a psychotherapist when we start our journey, during our first contact, is: "Do you work under supervision?"

Jacek Masłowski: I mean, that is an absolute must, yes.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: It absolutely must be happening.

Jacek Masłowski: Let me go back to this issue of giving advice. Listen, I have experience working with men who literally work themselves to death, you know, 300 hours a month.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: The guy is going to burn out.

Jacek Masłowski: And these are guys who, for example, are functioning very poorly. Now, if I give him this advice: "Listen, take care of your vacation, your rest." As a necessity, or just to be able to function in his life, but also in this process. That’s a very blurry example. Is that life advice or not? Am I allowed to say it, or am I not? It comes down to what the motive is, what the intention is, and what effect it can realistically have.

Sometimes, there is a place for self-disclosure in psychotherapy, where you share a part of yourself that reveals something the other person hasn't been able to discover because they lack those patterns in their own life. But I’ll say it again: this must be very carefully thought out and, ideally, supervised. Because it’s supervised, there’s a marker on the timeline of the entire process that you can then observe to see what effect it has, allowing you to make adjustments if necessary.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: OK, moving on to the next myth: "I would go to psychotherapy, but I’m afraid it might harm me."

Jacek Masłowski: The question is, what does "harm" mean? If we’re talking about the fact that psychotherapy—through the therapeutic process—leads you to make changes in your life, I look back at various people I’ve worked with. Sometimes it really was the case—I work with a man who runs a large company, a "one-man band" doing so many things, and he comes to me saying he wants to live differently. His life doesn't satisfy him, but he has this idea that on top of everything he’s already doing, he’ll just add something else that will make his life great. After a while, once we’ve looked at the source of why he’s competing with his father, for example, I usually ask if he wants to continue, knowing that…

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: …that he’s competing with his father through his achievements?

Jacek Masłowski: He’s trying to meet his father’s expectations, to prove he deserves his love, for instance. You have to see this in a broader context, of course.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I’m clarifying this jargon because while it might be obvious to me, I want it to be clear for our listeners as well.

Jacek Masłowski: I usually ask a question like this, knowing that if we go further, you might make changes in your life that lead you to not want to run your company anymore—or any number of other things. Do you want to go down that path? Let’s look at that motivation first, OK? And I’ve never had anyone who actually made that change within themselves say that therapy harmed them. However, I have known people who, being in relationships with those individuals, said that someone’s psychotherapy harmed them. "You’ve ruined my man, he’s not the way he used to be," and so on.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: So, psychotherapy, in quotes, "harms the old you"?

Jacek Masłowski: It changes the status quo in which you function. Now, everything depends on whether the system the person in therapy belongs to resonates consistently with that person and that change—meaning, does it also move toward change, or does it resist?  

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: And does it always have to be painful in psychotherapy?

Jacek Masłowski: Let's go back to my example about seeing an orthopedist...

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: The one about the spine?

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, but it turns out it's not the spine, it's the leg—it healed incorrectly. So, what do you have to do now to get that leg to heal properly?

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I'm afraid you have to break it.

Jacek Masłowski: You can do it under anesthesia, but you'll still be aware that they're breaking your leg—and that, at least psychologically, is not pleasant.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: That sounds very brutal.

Jacek Masłowski: In principle, we have to make this change... I mean, the word "pain"—I'm not sure how to define it—maybe "discomfort" is better, because we are paradoxically leaving our comfort zone, moving from the known to the unknown.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Even if what is known is unpleasant and harmful to us...

Jacek Masłowski: ...it's still a comfort zone, right? Very often, paradoxically, we say we don't want something, but because it's what we know, we end up clinging to it, even though we don't want it.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Because we know how to navigate it.

Jacek Masłowski: Exactly, we have algorithms for that; we know what will happen, how to behave in a given situation, how to react, when to arm ourselves, how to stay in control, and so on.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: And with the new comes uncertainty.

Jacek Masłowski: And with the new comes exploration, yes. It’s like learning about yourself all over again—not just within yourself, but also in relation to everything around you. It’s like changing jobs, but not just the company—changing your entire profession. You’re still Andrzej, but now you’re, I don’t know, a tire technician…

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: A podcaster, for example.

Jacek Masłowski: Or a podcaster, right?

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Exactly.

Jacek Masłowski: And that is terra incognita for you. You have a sense that it could be cool, but you have to learn things from scratch. You might notice that you feel uncomfortable with, I don’t know, having someone do your makeup or something else.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: As a psychotherapist, do you ever have periods of helplessness?

Jacek Masłowski: Of course I do.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: What does that look like? What do you do about it?

Jacek Masłowski: You go to supervision. Yes, definitely. Or to peer supervision. It’s also worth mentioning that therapists who work in teams—and fortunately, I work in a team—also have peer supervision. It works like this...

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Among yourselves.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes. It works by, you know, having breaks, being in our building, going to the break room, and if you feel stuck or something is happening, you say, "Hey guys, I have this situation. How do you see it?"

And that’s a quick, on-the-spot thing. If you have a team that’s great, cohesive, and, you know, supportive, that often helps a lot. But even then, for more intense cases, you go to supervision to check if that helplessness is actually your own, because it could be...

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: ...the client's.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, which you take on from the client, that this helplessness serves a purpose in the relationship—perhaps to trigger you into feeling anger or wanting to reject that person. I know that if someone isn't involved in this field, it sounds like "black magic," but that helplessness requires careful observation. Does it stem from the fact that I really don't know, don't have the tools, or don't understand the situation?

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Or from fear, from fear. Everything is underpinned by fear—fear of what the first session will look like. I book a first session with a psychotherapist, and a whole cascade of images starts in my head. What is an ideal first session with a psychotherapist like? You don't have to talk about a universal one, because different people work in different ways, but if we were to establish some basic principles—what needs to happen for us to feel safe, and what can we, as clients, ask for? How should it look?

Jacek Masłowski: You know, I won't answer that question because, again, depending on the modality, those sessions can simply look different.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Modality, meaning the therapeutic approach.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, the therapeutic approach. You will use different tools, and the flow of the session will vary, but as a rule, it usually starts with—well, again, no, it wouldn't be responsible for me to say, because I don't know all the modalities, and I don't know if, for example, in CBT they also ask you what you're starting with, right? Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I don't know. I almost always start with that.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Where do you start?

Jacek Masłowski: By checking in on where the person is at the start of the session.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Here and now.

Jacek Masłowski: Here and now, yes, but that’s also one of the fundamentals in Gestalt, right? Being in the here and now. So, I don’t think I can give a responsible answer to that question.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: In that case, I’ll lean on something else.

Jacek Masłowski: OK.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: A very universal statement I adopted from Professor Irena Namysłowska, who said that the fundamental substrate for building a therapeutic relationship is interest.

Jacek Masłowski: Right.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Beautiful.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, definitely.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Regardless of the modality you work in.

Jacek Masłowski: Mutual interest.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Exactly. When a psychotherapist, regardless of their school of thought, asks the first question, it is rooted in a positive intention of genuine interest: "Hello, I'm glad you're here for this meeting, which may not be pleasant, but is certainly difficult for you. Why are we meeting today? What’s behind this?" This is already an expression of interest, as it is what opens the door to building trust.

Jacek Masłowski: Sorry, that’s such an obvious point that it didn’t even cross my mind that it’s actually relevant here…

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: But we are debunking myths, because someone might say there’s a myth that "psychoanalysts sleep behind your back." You’ve surely heard of that, right?

Jacek Masłowski: Sure.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: That psychoanalysts sit behind the patient and probably doze off while the client, curled up in a fetal position, talks about their childhood. Nothing of the sort happens, unless the therapist feels sleepy. And what then? They start to wonder, "Why are you trying to put me to sleep?"

Jacek Masłowski: OK…

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: That is how analysts might pose such a question. It means they start to pay attention to the fact that the message—the feeling of drowsiness—might also be an element of the relationship's dynamics.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, because that falls under phenomenology, or what is happening in the field—to use the language of my own modality.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: More than just conversation.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes. And for example, absolutely… The term has slipped my mind now, kinesthetic. The point is that the therapist's body, certainly in Gestalt, and what happens within it, says a great deal about what is happening in the process. I’ve forgotten the term.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: We’ll come back to it in a moment.

Jacek Masłowski: I’ve forgotten the term. In any case, I, for example, work a lot with my body in therapy, in the sense that I pay a great deal of attention to the signals I receive from my body during what is happening. For instance, to use jargon, whether I’m being "cut out" in such a way that I start to feel sleepy. And you know, even if you’ve been working, I don’t know, four or five hours that day, that’s not the point; you notice that it happens more often in this relationship than in another.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: Interesting.

Jacek Masłowski: Exactly. And you start to explore that. Why is it like that? It doesn’t stem from the content—that they are telling you things that don’t interest you—because, in reality, the content in psychotherapy, the things being said, is just a small fragment of the whole process. Phenomenology is actually quite important here. However, you can start to look at what is happening, so to speak, with the energy between you. Why does this sleepiness appear? It could be about being stuck, it could be about your resistance, or it could be about your client’s resistance to something. It’s not super obvious, and again, we come back to intervision or supervision. But you can also explore it. A few times, it has happened that I even brought it up in a session, saying: "Listen, you know, I’m feeling something right now, and I’ll name it: my body is starting to make me sleepy. I don’t know what is happening in our relationship here and now. Would you like to take a look at that?" And sometimes that has actually worked really well.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: And what happens then?

Jacek Masłowski: I don’t recall the specific results of that intervention at this moment, but that is exactly… Oh, I know. I’ve just remembered. It was in that specific moment I’m talking about now; it was a situation where the person I was in a process with, in that relationship, was telling me things. A lot was happening in their head, but that story… it was a substitute for being in an encounter with me. It was an escapist story, and when I revealed that feeling, I invited them to return to the relationship.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: OK.

Jacek Masłowski: And it worked somehow, I don’t remember now.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: But something was set in motion back then because of that.

Jacek Masłowski: Exactly.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I understand that what we are discussing, alongside the story of the person who is a psychotherapy client—which we build upon by breaking down these myths and creating a humanized, emotional, here-and-now figure—is the psychotherapist themselves. They are also a human being, a "vessel" that is metaphorically empty but, in fact, compassionate. They don't necessarily feel the exact same emotions, but they feel alongside the client, and they are human.

So, a psychotherapist isn't a mannequin. You know, some people are afraid of who they’ll be sitting across from. I still remember a patient who said he wouldn't go to a psychotherapist—he specifically said "female psychotherapist"—because they wrap themselves in those scarves regardless of the season, tilt their heads, and talk about their "feelings," and he just couldn't trust them.

That was quite a strong stereotype. Later, I was in a therapy group in July and noticed that out of a dozen people at the peer supervision session, eight of my female colleagues were wearing scarves. I started wondering where these things come from. So, once again, we focus on external things instead of building a real relationship with another person, even though there is a real human being right there.

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, we’ve talked about how, precisely because you are the primary tool in your work as a therapist, you have to account for everything happening within you. That includes your emotions, states, temperament, and whatever the day brought before the session. Sometimes, you know, things happen—you were driving to work, there was an accident, you saw something that triggered you—and you bring that into the session as well.

And again, in Gestalt, we try to "bracket" ourselves and what’s inside us. But that "try" means we don't always fully succeed. The more aware you are of what you're carrying, the better it is for you, your client, and the process, because you’ll understand how what’s happening in the process might influence your reactions. Right here and now.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I’d like to start psychotherapy, but I don’t know where to begin. Do I have to start with something specific?

Jacek Masłowski: Well, I think you’ve already started, because if you want to, you probably know why you want to.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: So, you answer the question, "Why do you need this?"

Jacek Masłowski: Yes, what exactly is the reason you want to go to therapy? Only then is it worth starting to think about who to choose. And in my opinion, choosing someone is also a process, because it’s a relationship.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: And what should we be guided by?

Jacek Masłowski: People usually choose a therapist based on recommendations or some preconceived notion they have, like, "This person is like this," or "That person is like that," or "She’s great because a few people told me so." And while it’s often true that these people are highly competent, what really matters is how you feel in the therapeutic relationship. Even if you go to a world-class specialist with a great reputation, it might turn out that, for whatever reason, the chemistry just isn't there, and it simply won't work for you.

Therapy usually begins with a few consultations—one, two, or three—before you commit to working together. It’s also important to remember that a therapist has the right to decline working with you. This isn't because they don't like you; it’s simply because they may not feel they can provide the specific help you need within that professional relationship.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: It’s fair.

Jacek Masłowski: Exactly, because these are just consultations, and it shouldn't be taken as a personal rejection.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Even though it can be difficult.

Jacek Masłowski: Of course. So, I think it’s worth meeting with a therapist a few times first.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Thank you for that. I know that since the beginning of this year, you’ve also become a podcaster.

Jacek Masłowski: That’s right.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Where can people find your podcast?

Jacek Masłowski: You know, I have a YouTube channel called "Czasem czuły, czasem barbarzyńca" (Sometimes Tender, Sometimes Barbarian). It’s dedicated to men’s issues and masculinity in a broad sense, but you can’t talk about masculinity without touching on relationships with women or relationships in general, so a lot of women watch the channel too.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Thank you, Jacek. Sometimes tender, sometimes a barbarian, but above all, a human being. That is the character of the psychotherapist I have brought to you today. He accepted my invitation to this conversation to help break down some of the myths that we both believe can be a source of often unfounded anxiety about what psychotherapy actually is. It is an encounter, the adventure of meeting another person with whom, on terms of a certain degree of equality, but also transactionality, we can explore interesting areas to facilitate change. Thank you, Jacek, for this conversation.

Jacek Masłowski: Thank you, Andrzej, as well.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: This was "Well Said" in the Multi.Life space. Take care.

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