Maybe your boss is afraid of psychologists?

Prioritizing mental health in Polish companies is often a hot potato, tossed back and forth between leaders and HR departments. Is there really anything to be afraid of? Or are we falling into the trap of stereotypes and pop psychology? In the latest episode of the Dobrze Powiedziane series, we discuss why office yoga or meditation pods are often just a band-aid for serious problems, the causes and effects of burnout, misinformation, and what real psychological support actually looks like (both inside and outside the workplace). Joining the conversation is Andrzej Silczuk with Dr. Joanna Gutral – a psychologist, psychotherapist, and psychoeducator.

1. 00:00:00 Introduction
2. 00:02:03 What is mental health and how to take care of it
3. 00:04:21 Normalizing emotions
4. 00:07:45 How to recognize when you need support
5. 00:10:54 The role of therapy and debunking stereotypes
6. 00:14:39 Why reaching out for help can be difficult
7. 00:18:42 How to talk about mental health at work
8. 00:22:16 Leadership support and organizational culture
9. 00:26:31 The limits of empathy and caregiver burnout
10. 00:31:28 Authenticity and healthy team communication
11. 00:36:54 How to take care of yourself in a world of sensory overload
12. 00:41:47 Small steps toward well-being
13. 00:46:22 Emotional burnout and warning signs
14. 00:50:14 Perfectionism and the need for control
15. 00:54:39 How to deal with criticism and pressure
16. 00:58:26 Boundaries between professional and private life
17. 01:03:47 On rest and recovery
18. 01:09:15 The impact of social media on our well-being
19. 01:13:52 Self-acceptance and kindness toward one's own emotions

Transcript

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: Welcome to the Multi.Life space. This is the "Well Said" program. My name is Andrzej Silczuk, and joining me today is Dr. Joanna Gutral, a social scientist, psychologist, and certified cognitive-behavioral psychotherapist.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Hi, hello.

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: I am very happy that I managed to invite you. You are the host of one of my favorite podcasts, "Gutral Gada." You write books and fantastically combine psychological knowledge with a true spirit of humanism and sensitivity. Thank you for accepting my invitation to this conversation.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Andrzej, that is very kind of you, thank you.

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: Our topic today is why our bosses and the people we work with might be afraid of working with a psychologist. But before we get to that, I wanted to ask you: what, in your opinion, is anxiety in the first place?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: It has many different facets, and I think we need to confront what it is on an emotional level, as well as what has grown up around it. Anxiety is an emotion. In psychology, we often say that it arises not in the face of a real threat, but often from imagined stimuli.

This is how we distinguish fear from anxiety. To put it colloquially, if a scary dog jumps out at me, I get scared—there is a stimulus. Anxiety, on the other hand, appears when I start imagining that there is a possibility of a terrible threat lurking around some corner, even though I have no clear evidence that the stimulus is actually there.

In Polish, perhaps to a lesser extent, but in English, the term "anxiety" is now very common in pop culture as a set of symptoms related to tension. In other words, it has become a catch-all term into which we throw not only issues related to our emotions, but also the tension that accumulates throughout the day, as well as cognitive strategies like worrying—that is, various imagined scenarios of what might go wrong, which usually head in a catastrophic direction.

All of this can easily intermingle, resulting in increased stress levels, difficulty concentrating, sleep disturbances, and challenges in maintaining a healthy lifestyle. It may also be linked to the sheer volume of stimuli we receive. I mentioned a real-world stimulus, like a "scary dog" or an upcoming performance review that I might be anxious about. But when we are constantly overstimulated and surrounded by an overwhelming flood of information—often driven by unpredictable algorithms—it can lead to distortions. We are surrounded by so much information that it essentially feeds us anxiety-inducing ideas or scenarios.

For example, I’ll share an experience with you. Recently, for some reason, I fell into an algorithm loop of people struggling with terminal illnesses. Even though I get regular check-ups and have no reason to believe that anything is wrong with my health or that of my loved ones, the mere fact that I was increasingly exposed to such content caused my health-related anxiety to rise. I want to point out that this is a very uneven playing field.

It’s us versus an algorithm programmed to keep us engaged for as long as possible by feeding us very specific content. I’m talking primarily about digital algorithms, where we spend so much of our lives. When you combine these digital experiences with the tensions and demands of the real world, there are truly countless sources of anxiety.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I understand that in this context, the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon might be triggered—meaning if I see a certain type of content, I start paying more attention to it, even though its actual frequency remains the same?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: That’s one part of it; the selectivity of our attention can indeed become more sensitive to certain content once a stimulus is activated. On the other hand, there are trends or types of content that—speaking of digital algorithms—suck us in and start exposing us to specific things more frequently, depending on what we pay attention to. So, we are quite tightly surrounded by various traps of distortion.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Until the end of the last century, we thought of anxiety as a negative emotion. That changed with Martin Seligman. I understand that today we view anxiety with a bit more familiarity and are more interested in its communicative function?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: As the father of positive psychology, Seligman introduced a new perspective to the field. I don’t want to say he was the first per se, as he is one of the "founding fathers" of this research movement, but even the definition of health from the 1960s shifted from merely the absence of disease to adding a positive element: an individual's ability to build and develop their potential.

Seligman emphasized the informational role of emotions, including anxiety. There is a prevailing belief that we divide emotions into positive and negative. Some schools of thought argue that we shouldn't call emotions "negative" because they are important. I disagree, because emotions have valence—a sign.

We have emotions associated with positive experiences, like joy. We have emotions associated with loss or reduced psychomotor drive, like sadness. I believe that absolutely all emotions serve an informational role. However, let’s not get hung up on the "positive" and "negative" labels in the sense that if something is negative, we need to avoid it.

If anxiety informs us about something important—for instance, if we imagine a catastrophic scenario—let’s go back to the health example. If I feel anxious that I or a loved one might be facing a difficult health situation, that can be valuable information that health is a value to me.

Consequently, how can I protect that value? For example, by engaging more frequently in preventative screenings designed to help me enjoy my health for as long as possible. Of course, any intensity can become pathological; if my health anxiety is so high that it hinders my daily functioning, it can turn into a disorder known as "health anxiety."

However, as long as we read the information our emotions provide, we can use it to build an adaptive coping strategy that, in fact, brings us closer to achieving our important goals and values.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I once heard a very interesting evolution of this dichotomous division into negative and positive emotions—into emotions that are easier to experience and those that are harder. After all, it is very difficult to experience joy, which is positively charged, in objectively difficult circumstances for others—for example, during a widespread, unpleasant, and very sad event where we don't feel that sadness. And vice versa: we might be at a birthday party or a major celebration, but internally feel sad or anxious, which makes it difficult to experience in that group setting.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: I think it’s important for emotions to be appropriate. That is, of course, we have micro and macro contexts. I might go to a great birthday party for a very close friend where everyone is having a wonderful time, but at the same time, because I am going through something difficult, I may not be able to derive the same joy that the situational context suggests.

On the other hand, when difficult things happen in my life, expecting myself to be bursting with joy suggests that my reaction is inadequate to what I am experiencing. Furthermore, this state of "eternal happiness," which is often seen as a life goal, is, as you likely know from a medical and biological perspective, very taxing on our bodies. You fall very painfully from that high of dopamine and serotonin, and there are biological mechanisms behind this; a state of constant, elevated mood is called mania or hypomania, so it is not a state we should actually desire.

Our goal is not to be happy forever. However, whenever I encounter these beliefs about emotions with patients in my office—because we don't just feel emotions, we also have a set of thoughts about what those emotions might do to us—we discuss whether they are threatening, whether they are survivable, whether they hinder or facilitate our functioning, and what we should do with them at all.

Think of the classic "Boys don't cry" trope, where men aren't really allowed to experience sadness, and how that takes a toll on how we cope with emotions. So, when I start basic psychoeducation with patients about the nature of emotions—their role and meaning in human life—I ask, "If someone close to you passes away and you feel sad, is that normal?" and most people answer, "Yes, absolutely." The emotional problems we deal with in the office begin when that adequacy starts to drift, as in the case of mood disorders or depressive disorders. Patryk says, "Everything seems fine, everything is okay, but I just can't enjoy the things I used to. Basically, I wake up every day with a low mood, I've lost my previous interests." That is when we see that the adequacy of emotions starts to drift, and that causes suffering.

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: I was thinking that one of the sources of anxiety is a lack of knowledge. If we don't know, understand, or perceive something, it builds those kinds of emotions in us. In circumstances where there is so much talk about the Act on the Profession of Psychologist and certain controversies, can this ignorance be a source of anxiety?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: It can. I think that if we consider the issue of trust in science and scientists, a recent report on trust in science and technology indicated that Poles are second to last in terms of the percentage of people who believe that science influences our lives and that it should be trusted. That is, 54% of Poles believe that science is not needed in our lives and should not be trusted or believed.

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: Distrust or…?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Distrust and a lack of belief that it changes anything. Furthermore, there is a fairly high correlation with belief in conspiracy theories. And now, while ignorance can generate anxiety, the other issue is that we are able to fill that ignorance with something, and this is where conspiracy theories fit perfectly into the gap between cognition and our various emotional experiences related to it.

As for the Act on the Profession of Psychotherapist, the fact that this is not legislatively addressed as a European country is, in my opinion, a huge misunderstanding. But this misunderstanding has been going on for over 30 years, so the market has regulated itself to some extent. Because of how it regulated itself and how it functioned, a whole host of beliefs emerged regarding what psychotherapy is, what it is not, whether it works, whether it doesn't, and what results we can expect.

I have said this many times in various speeches, but I thought it was important to highlight it once again. We learn about things in school, but we don't learn the basics of psychological functioning, which we have from a very young age and with which we will function until our death.

Consequently, we cling to various beliefs we brought from home or the environment in which we were raised, trying to organize our internal functioning. And, of course, many of us will have many different experiences with psychologists and psychotherapists, just as many of us have different experiences with doctors. And the turn toward so-called alternative medicine—though I would call it pseudo-medicine—is something we are observing on a huge scale right now, and I think it is sometimes the result of ignorance, and sometimes simply the result of very bad experiences or beliefs and messages coming from other people that fit perfectly into that gap of ignorance.

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: Speaking of that ignorance, I have a unique opportunity, having you in the studio today, to try to build a foundation of reliable knowledge about how these definitions overlap. You defined emotions, especially anxiety, fantastically. I wanted to ask you for your perspective on who a psychologist is.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: A psychologist is a person who has completed a 5-year uniform master's degree program and specializes in one of the areas that psychology deals with, because it is not always just health psychology. It is a very broad field that is used in many different areas. However, moving toward health, a psychologist deals with psychological diagnosis, psychological counseling, psychotherapy after acquiring additional, important competencies, but also crisis intervention, and I could probably list a few other types of interventions.

Psychology is a social science that deals with human functioning. At the level of the individual, but also in groups and in interaction with other elements of the reality surrounding us. For example, new technologies are also a fairly new element that has entered our lives very intensely, to the point that psychology is also beginning to look at how we start to cope in this human-computer interaction, what it gives us, and what it changes in our lives and in the quality of our lives and functioning.

Exactly, I said "quality of life"... I think that is such an important keyword, that in this area of health, we deal not only with psychopathology, not only with health, but precisely with this positive aspect, that is, the quality of our lives—how we can build this life and lead it in such a way that it is satisfying.

Psychology has become very popular. A report by researchers from SWPS University, among others, shows that the number of people studying psychology has increased more than 100-fold over the last few years. It is a very popular field of study and a very popular discipline. Consequently, there is also a growing demand for certain types of mental health interventions.

However, to add a fly in the ointment, the wellness market is also growing, which is not always linked to psychology. This isn't a critique yet—I'll get to the critique later—but there is a growing interest in how we can get the most out of life. The author of the book "The Gospel of Wellness," published in July of this year, also writes brilliantly about how much this boom for a happy life, for the best life possible, is currently desired and, I think, pursued with varying degrees of success.

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: At what cost?

Joanna Gutral, PhD: At the cost of the individual, I think, primarily. And—now I will try not to saw off the branch I am sitting on—this will be quite a tricky task. I think it is important that we are at a point in history where we can reflect on our well-being and the quality of our lives.

However, we must also note that various civilizational challenges place us in a context where we are also facing different hurdles, such as the pace of our lives or socioeconomic demands related to financial status. If we were to tell our ancestors that we pay for a plastic card that allows us to enter a place where we can move around for an hour or an hour and a half, they would look at us, tap their foreheads, and say: "But why? You go out to the field, you get up with the sunrise, you go to sleep with the sunset, you eat seasonal produce you grew yourself, you live in a village that is close to you, that you know, that is connected to your family environment. Why would you pay for a place where you have to move?"

Our lives have changed to such an extent that most of us now perform sedentary work, and we have moved away from mechanisms of functioning that were once very natural, which, in fact, are now making our lives worse. Of course, this is not a call for us to drop everything and "move to the mountains" to live like people did 100 years ago, but I think it is worth keeping in mind that some civilizational achievements distance us from the very basic principles of healthy functioning, and consequently, this can generate further problems.

And now wellness, especially during the pandemic, when we were somewhat stopped and forced to stay in one place, when it became painfully obvious that we were facing increasing limitations and our relationships were not what we wanted them to be—because suddenly we all had to stay at home together—it turned out that the communication just wasn't there.

So we started looking more intensely for new ways to make life better. And sometimes these ways are very simple, and I think you know this perfectly well, that the slogan "Feeling sad? Go for a run" is not as bad a slogan as it might seem. It means that behavioral activation in the case of a low mood, to a certain extent of course, can be quite an effective intervention. But that was not enough, because if I were to say, "Andrzej, listen, if you have a low mood, and I have a low mood too, let's go for a walk every evening for an hour, we'll talk, walk a bit, and it might turn out that, first of all, we'll sleep better after some activity."

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: That is much better than: "Let's go get a drink."

Joanna Gutral, PhD: That, above all. We'll talk, so we'll have some kind of social support and relationship building, and then we'll add physical activity to that, and in all likelihood, we will feel better. But it's free. The author of the book I mentioned, "The Gospel of Wellness," shows that most of these interventions end with yoga.

Of course, that is a bit of a hyperbole, and I wouldn't want to suggest that I have anything against yoga, but an industry has also started to form around wellness. Meaning, if it's yoga, it has to be specific classes, a specific subscription, specific equipment, a specific lifestyle, a specific...

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: We have become very goal-oriented.

Joanna Gutral, PhD: Exactly, we have become goal-oriented, but also focused on a certain consumerist movement that accompanies it, all to achieve our dream life, the quality of that life, to connect with ourselves, to take care of ourselves. I have the impression that in the modern world, these have often become empty buzzwords, because it's a bit like saying, "Okay, I'm having difficulties in a close relationship, I'm not satisfied with my job, my personal life isn't in the best place, so I'll just put a yoga band-aid on it." Perhaps it will be a temporary fix, in terms of improving my mood or the satisfaction of having accomplished something, but on the other hand, it is not actual self-care in the sense of looking after oneself and one's needs.

It is a bit of a smokescreen designed to make me fit into a wellness trend, because since everyone is doing it, since everyone says it works, I will follow suit and wait until I manage to experience that happiness. But on the other hand, it distracts from what the actual problem is. And as much as we all want and desire this happy, high-quality, good life, we often turn to practices that have no scientifically proven effectiveness. We don't actually know if they work at all, and they are multiplying like mushrooms after rain.

To be clear, I don’t believe that psychotherapy is the most important mental health intervention, nor that everyone should be in therapy. I see psychotherapy as a method of treatment and, consequently, personal development, but there are other interventions as well. Before any of those take place, I always recommend trying to establish a balanced lifestyle. Even the best psychotherapy, which lasts 50 minutes and usually happens once a week, won't be able to change how you function if you spend 14 hours a day at work, sleep for five, eat poorly, and basically only move between your desk and the bathroom. There is no power in psychotherapy that can change habits like those.

Of course, in the process of psychotherapy, we talk about what a healthy lifestyle looks like, but without the patient's commitment, we cannot force them to make those changes. These changes are often costly and frequently run counter to what we hear about productivity, efficiency, and career advancement. Living a balanced life comes at a high price and certainly requires a lot of work.

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: From what you’re saying, I gather that we are a species that strives very hard to be out of balance. Even though biology drives processes toward harmony—meaning we biologically strive for homeostasis, a state of internal balance, both hormonal and energetic—humans seem to force themselves out of that state. Is psychology a path toward restoring that balance?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: I think so. Primarily because of the diversity of the areas it reaches into and draws from. We have a huge branch of health psychology, as well as psychology that deals specifically with lifestyle. Not to mention psychotherapy—I don’t believe it’s the only source, because a combination of a psychologist, a nutritionist, and a personal trainer can create something great, something truly tailored to the individual.

Another layer, which I touched upon when mentioning wellness, is social media, where we find a lot of recipes, trends, ideas, and various fads. There have been fads for diets, fads for exercise programs, and there are fads in psychology too—for example, one I recently came across was the "mother wound."

I honestly thought I might have slept through a lecture somewhere during my studies because I had never heard the term "mother wound" in psychology. It turned out to be a pop-psychology label created to describe a set of symptoms we might struggle with. The problem is that these labels are often so broad that they lose nuance and, in fact, create a problem only to then offer a solution for it.

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: And it’s also easy to identify with when the spectrum is so broad.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Exactly—in the form of an e-book, a course, or a training session. You know, the framework was so broad that, essentially, everyone has a "mother wound."

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: So, just another band-aid.  

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Another band-aid. What’s more, that band-aid turns out to be ineffective. Often, these are proprietary programs created—I believe with good intentions—by people who sometimes don't realize how many risks they are overlooking when dealing with such a delicate and specific subject as health. And then we are left with the feeling: "Well, it was supposed to work—it didn't, which means I’m not trying hard enough, or I’m not developed enough, or I haven't looked deep enough within myself."

It’s a way of shifting responsibility onto the individual, even though the problems you’re talking about—the lack of balance—weren't created by the individual. They were created by the capitalist culture we currently face, where productivity and efficiency have been placed on such a high pedestal that we can no longer reach the finish line because the standards have ceased to be realistic.

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: I remember that about two or three decades ago, the "Psychology" section in bookstores was reserved for academic books for people studying psychology to earn a master's degree in the field. Other psychological content was mostly found in self-help guides. Today, when you walk into a popular bookstore, you see an entire wall of books on psychological topics. Are we dealing with some form of a "psychology fad"?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Yes, absolutely. For psychology, for pseudopsychology, for wellness, for everything related to our quality of life. What’s more, there’s a prevailing belief that you just need to know how to listen and have a bit of empathy to be a psychologist. We all feel like psychologists because we’re all human. But that’s a bit like saying we all feel like cardiologists because we have a heart. And that just doesn’t add up. I talk about psychology in a very unromantic way. In my opinion, it’s a service. Now, if any of us went to any service provider—to get our nails done, custom furniture, I don’t know, you name it—we would expect a price, punctuality, and a description of the results.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: And probably the quality of that service, too.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Most likely. And now I wonder what happened that we’ve pushed psychotherapy or mental health into some metaphysical, intangible realm that’s a meeting of souls. No, psychotherapy is meant to be effective and safe.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: So it is a science.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Definitely. And we have methods that have scientifically proven efficacy—meaning we know from research what to expect, in which cases it works, how long the effects last, and what the intervention actually entails. And then we have methods that do not have scientifically proven efficacy. I am, of course, no one to tell people what they should use, although I would like—just as we do when going to a doctor versus a quack—to have an equally clear distinction in the case of psychotherapy between methods with proven scientific efficacy versus pop psychology and pseudotherapy.

Because being tempted by the promise of a good life if you just resolve your trauma from 30 generations back is, I think, very alluring, especially for people who are actively experiencing a kind of suffering that is hard for them to understand or accept, yet is very real, hinders their functioning, and lowers their quality of life.

I perfectly understand that "a drowning man will clutch at a straw," especially when it concerns us or our loved ones. But psychotherapy is, first and foremost, work; this service is tailor-made because it concerns that specific patient. A diagnosis describes a set of symptoms, not the person themselves, so while it is worth focusing on diagnostic units in psychotherapy, we should primarily focus on the human being and what they bring into the office, with the goal of helping them achieve their objectives. These goals usually relate to significantly improving their quality of life, and when such a service doesn't work, it's worth considering why and what lies behind the failure of such therapy.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: I hear that the world is divided into two categories regarding psychology: real psychology, practiced by experts in their field, and pop psychology, which is the parapsychological side. It’s a bit like non-medicine, or "alternative medicine" versus science-based medicine—that we are dealing with these two worlds, and the latter, the more attractive, more viral one that offers quick results at a low cost, might be the source of the stereotypical fears that arise from the demonized experiences of people who sought help in psychology or psychotherapy but experienced something, in quotes, "weird." How can we identify who is an actual expert in this field today? How do we navigate a world where there are tens of thousands of people wanting to provide psychological and psychotherapeutic services, when there are only—what—20,000 of them?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Some data suggests over 20,000. Yes, although we don't have clear criteria for who can be a psychotherapist... I think this is important because it still surprises some people. If any of you wanted to change careers tomorrow or start a sole proprietorship and entered a specific code—I don't remember, I think it's "86.9"...

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: The professional code.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Yes, the business activity... Well, I don't remember, but in any case, it's "not elsewhere classified"...

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: Non-medical therapeutic practice.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Anyone can do it. No one will ask for a diploma, no one will ask for a license to practice, because, legally speaking, this profession doesn't exist.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: OK – so I am a client and I am looking for help. What should a potential client, a person in need, look for? I’m not talking about some generational trauma, but real, here-and-now difficulties in relationships, at work, with focus and attention. I have a lot of anxiety, I wake up in the morning, I can't focus, I can't concentrate my thoughts, everything is falling apart. I’m looking for help. Who should I go to, or what should I pay attention to, so I don't miss the mark?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: I would look at what master's degree that person holds. Whether it’s related to the so-called helping professions—psychology, pedagogy, nursing, or, for example, medical professions. Next, whether that person has completed or is in the process of a comprehensive 4-year training program in one of the psychotherapy approaches, the so-called schools of therapy.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: Which ones?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: These are psychodynamic, humanistic-existential, cognitive-behavioral, systemic—which deal with families and couples—and integrative. I knew there were five—I missed one.

So, check if the person has completed such training. These comprehensive, 4-year programs usually last a minimum of 1,200 hours, so it’s worth checking—if the information is public—whether it’s just a weekend course. That’s a popular trend right now: people post diplomas on their websites, but when you take a closer look, it turns out it was just a weekend course, not a multi-year training program.

Does this person undergo supervision? That is, do they have their work overseen by someone with more therapeutic experience who has also earned supervisor credentials? That is the "absolute basic requirement." What is very non-specific…

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: Let’s debunk that myth. Why do you go to a supervisor?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Why? Because any of us can get lost in our work, get carried away, not know what to do next, or need support. We go to a supervisor to ensure we don't harm the patient. Just as doctors have their consultations and briefings to discuss treatment processes, psychotherapists sometimes need to consult with someone when they see that an intervention might not be as effective as it could be, or when they have doubts. They also want to confront their own beliefs and concerns that may arise during the therapy process.

I think it’s incredibly valuable and is a strong indicator of a specialist’s safety, professionalism, and commitment. A very non-specific factor is the random factor—how well I get along with that person. We can’t get along with everyone; a therapist has their own temperament, pace of speech, tone of voice, and personality. I don’t think it’s the most important factor, but it’s worth remembering that sometimes you just—to put it colloquially—"click" with someone, and sometimes you don't, and that’s okay to explore. It’s the same with doctors—sometimes you feel like you worked great with one, and not so much with another.

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: I understand, that we can also talk about this with a therapist?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Absolutely.

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: Something doesn't feel right here, for example, I'm bothered by the way you speak or your attire, and that is also a message that can be informative in the therapeutic process, because something might have been reenacted.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Definitely. What is also important in therapy is the therapeutic relationship we build. I call it "empirical collaboration," and usually, when I start working with a patient, I say there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers – so I take full responsibility for that.

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: So empirical, meaning based on experience.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Yes, the moment a patient brings up various difficulties in our therapeutic relationship, it can also be valuable for their life in general, their functioning, and what happens in the outside world, and that can be an area we want to examine. But yes, the relationship should be safe enough that we are able to bring up various inconveniences, difficulties, concerns, and issues that irritate or annoy us.

Of course, we also build a kind of treatment plan, that is, interventions designed to help the patient achieve their goals. Because we haven't mentioned this yet, and I think it's quite important, I don't know who my patient wants to be when they come to me. It's not like patient Andrzej comes in and I always say, "Mr. Andrzej, I think you'd like to be a bit more satisfied, and I have this happy Andrzej in my head, so I'm going to get you there."

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: "Be my guest."

Dr. Joanna Gutral: I operate on the assumption that while I am the expert in psychological tools and techniques, my patient is the expert on themselves. The therapeutic goals set by the patient serve to help us build a treatment plan that allows them to achieve those goals. Can the goal be to have a villa with a pool and three cars? Unfortunately, no; I don't have the tools to help someone secure that. However, a therapy goal could be that a person wants to get rid of a symptom like low mood or high tension, or perhaps they want to learn a specific skill—better communication, assertiveness, or being able to go to work without a stomach ache that has no other medical explanation. Or maybe they want to be able to speak at a conference or in front of a team instead of taking sick leave because they are so afraid of how people will react once they step on stage that they start avoiding professional challenges, even though they suffer because it prevents them from growing. So, the patient sets the direction, and I use my psychological knowledge to help them reach that destination as safely and effectively as possible.

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: Let's step back from the therapeutic relationship for a moment, as it is quite unique. It involves someone deciding they want to seek help and choosing a therapist to meet with in a clinical setting. But let's go back to a situation where we are in a social group. A psychologist walks in. Do people feel comfortable in the presence of a psychologist outside of a therapeutic context? Although we could talk about the therapeutic context a bit later as well.

Joanna Gutral, PhD: "It depends"—the favorite answer of psychologists. I don't know. You'd probably have to ask people. I've lost that perspective a bit because I am a psychologist, although I think that when I enter a social situation, I'm not just a psychologist. However, there is that aspect where someone asks, "What do you do?" and I say, "I'm a psychologist," and they reply, "Oh, so you know what I'm thinking right now? Can you read my mind?"

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: So, there are stereotypes?

Joanna Gutral, PhD: Yes, they exist and are prevalent in our society. Of course, there is also the stereotype that only people who have problems themselves and want to learn something about their own issues go into psychology.

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: Then you haven't heard about psychiatrists.

Joanna Gutral, PhD No, you see, I never even tried to go to medical school, so those stereotypes passed me by. It’s somewhat inevitable that someone who studied computer science probably knows much more about how their computer works than I do. Yes, by studying psychology, I know much more about how mental processes work, including my own, because that is the subject matter I dealt with.

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: Can that cause anxiety?

Joanna Gutral, PhD: In people?

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: Yes.

Joanna Gutral, PhDIt might. I think, first of all, there is this fantasy that patients sometimes bring into the office, that a psychologist must have a perfect life because they have everything figured out and sorted, they don't argue with their spouse, and they have no difficulties in life at all because they can solve everything on their own. Of course, that is not true, because neither psychology nor psychotherapy gives us tools to be indestructible or to glide through life without a hitch.

It gives us tools to cope with what life brings, but coping doesn't mean that everything just rolls off me like water off a duck's back. It can mean that I am able to bounce back from a mental crisis more quickly, find adaptive strategies for dealing with tension—for example, knowing that when I feel a certain kind of tension and reach for a drink yet again, that is not a good strategy for regulating that tension, and that there are others I can use. Psychological knowledge gives us that, but it doesn't mean that all the misfortunes in life somehow pass us by.

People have very different beliefs about psychologists. I think this applies to many professional groups, and of course, some people believe that a psychologist is just a "friend for hire." So why go to an office when I can just meet a friend and talk? Well, that is the difference between professional psychological or psychotherapeutic work and a friendly relationship. I’m not devaluing friendship, as support from friends is a very important factor in both support and the prevention of various mental health difficulties.

However, this psychological or psychotherapeutic intervention has its own structure. This means that, just as we take a psychological history, we don't start with "So, what's up with you?" Instead, there is a set of very specific questions designed to help map out the patient's entire situation. It concerns not only the current problem but also their life history, general medical condition, and any previously experienced traumas or illnesses. It also covers which specialists they have sought out and what support they have needed at different stages of their life.

Only by creating this map of the person and the problem they are struggling with can we perform, apply, and tailor the appropriate intervention methods. It’s a bit like going to a friend and saying your leg hurts, and them looking at it and saying, "Well, you’ve definitely got a fracture somewhere in there."

Maybe, maybe not, but you go to a doctor so that they can perform the necessary tests, know exactly what happened, and be able to choose the best method for treating that difficulty. A friend will, of course, be a great support in running errands and keeping you company, but they are not the factor that will be responsible for the healing.

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: It’s great that you talked about that, because I definitely want to do an episode on these myths surrounding psychotherapy, as it’s a bottomless topic and there are certainly a great many such beliefs. The ones that persist in various social groups. We certainly know, thanks to you, that the diagnostic process is much more complicated and complex than it is instantaneous. Therefore, being in your presence, I might suspect that you have already diagnosed me.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: I have no such need at all.

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: Exactly. However, perhaps in various circumstances, people do experience a certain kind of fear of being judged when they are in the presence of psychologists.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Perhaps, but as you nicely said, I haven't diagnosed you because we aren't meeting here for diagnostic purposes.

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: Under these circumstances.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: And now, I don't know if anyone will believe me, but it’s a bit like a separate tab in the brain. When we meet for a diagnostic session, my task is to gather the necessary information and provide you with help. When we meet professionally, but also somewhat socially—because we know each other and like each other—I just want to have a nice conversation with you. The goal of a psychologist or psychotherapist is never to judge; it is to understand.

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: That is super important.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: I don't want to judge my patient; I want to assess their health. I want to understand the essence of their problem, why it occurred, and why it persists over time.

I don't have a scale that divides problems into those that are trivial and those that are important enough to address. During my therapeutic training, I was taught that as long as there are consequences, there is a need for therapy. When a patient comes to me and says—and honestly, I’ve never had anyone say they’re coming because everything is great—"I’m coming to you because I feel like I have no strength left. I feel like my marriage is in crisis, I feel like nothing brings me joy anymore, I feel like anger is tearing my head apart and I can't reach an understanding with anyone; I’m shouting, hurting myself, and hurting my loved ones." That is already suffering. Whatever follows that statement is important enough for that person to come to the office, sit down in front of a stranger, and talk about their life. That is enough. There is really no room for judgment here, even though we often hear those memes or sayings that most of us heard at home: "Don't be sad, others have it worse."

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk Right.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Sure, there are definitely people in the world who have it worse, but that doesn't mean you don't have it bad.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: Exactly. You mentioned that assessment serves the purpose of understanding, and I think that’s a very important takeaway for us from this meeting and this conversation. I’m processing what you’re saying and trying to apply it to the workplace, as work occupies such a huge part of our time and commitment. We’ve known for at least 3-4 years that organizations have been focusing on psychology and the psychological aspects of their employees' lives, recognizing that well-being—as a sense of satisfying, balanced functioning—also includes this psychological sphere. How can we properly understand this psychology in an organization today?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: I think it starts with realizing how a human being functions. Rest, taking a vacation, or taking sick leave when I’m unwell is not a privilege, laziness, or a sign of weakness—it is a duty.

I think two fronts have collided: one is "Efficiency, career, work, demands, results," and the other is "Quality of life"—how much I am willing to sacrifice for work and what my values are. Research shows that in terms of basic social perception, we tend to focus more on agentic goals—achieving, building a career, and performing—until about the age of 30. After 30, these agentic goals start to matter less, while communal goals—relationships, building a family system, spending time with loved ones—become increasingly important.

It may turn out that the career I was once willing to sacrifice so much for is no longer as important, because I want to be able to put my children to bed at night or spend a nice afternoon with them, rather than catching up on work I didn't finish, even though I was working quite efficiently during office hours.

I think this collision has started to weigh on us and affect our mental health. Look, in 2024, the WHO declared World Mental Health Day to be focused on mental health in the workplace. It’s a nod to the fact that professional burnout is becoming an increasingly significant difficulty in our daily lives.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: Burnout, because it has expanded beyond just the "professional" sphere.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Of course, we also have parental burnout, maternal burnout, and burnout in many other areas. It stems from the fact that when we are unable to ensure a certain flexibility in how we function—and I’m not talking about perks like flexible hours or hybrid work, but rather the ability to have a say in my work environment—I am driven, or I drive myself, to a state of emotional and physical exhaustion. I start to feel increasing hostility toward my colleagues and the people around me, and cynicism toward the world.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: You are describing the criteria for burnout.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: It starts to become very difficult to lead a decent life. I might be able to achieve some professional goals, but not in the long run, because burnout is a signal that you’re down to, you know, 5% battery. You either plug yourself in to recharge, or you shut down.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: But on the other hand, everyone tells us we have to keep up appearances at all costs.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: That begs the question – what does "at all costs" mean to you? Because the moment you reach that point—and I think this is the cunning fox of burnout—you say, "Okay, I won't go to the movies with the kids, I won't go to dinner with my husband, I won't go to the gym." But the moment you can no longer sleep, you wake up with digestive issues, you can't rest, you can't concentrate, you start forgetting things at work, your boss gets angry and says, "You didn't deliver again"—well, I didn't deliver because I forgot, because I didn't sleep all night—things start to get really intense.

And look, burnout very often correlates with symptoms of depression. Burnout itself isn't a disease by diagnostic criteria, but it can lead to various serious mental health difficulties. We know that the number of psychiatric sick leaves is rising, so we are feeling the real consequences. The question is: when will our warning light go on? Sometimes when I conduct corporate training, I tell companies that while installing a yoga or meditation pod is very nice, the question is whether that’s an adequate solution for what’s actually happening in that organization. Because it’s not always the case that an individual failed to cope. It’s that the system started operating in a way that the individual never had a chance to cope.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: You’re talking about organizational responsibility.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Absolutely.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Right. In Poland right now, according to various data, there are about one and a half million people, or even more, using psychological, psychotherapeutic, or psychiatric support. That’s a huge number of people. If we were to subtract the cluster of young children, the elderly, and those outside the system who we don't know about and who don't know how to seek help, it turns out we have a significant portion of the population that needs real support today.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Yes.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: They are using it, though more might need it, but at a rough estimate, we can say that roughly one in 20 people is involved.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Yes. And while I most often refer to psychotherapy, I’d also like to point out that we have psychological interventions of lower intensity. Meaning that psychotherapy is a treatment method for when things have progressed further.

You can go to a physical therapist because your back hurts, or you can go to a doctor, but not everyone ends up on the operating table because something has broken down to the point where it needs to be fixed.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: There are various types of prevention.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Exactly. As I’ve said before, we don’t have a subject in school that prepares us to manage our mental health. It’s starting to appear now, on a voluntary basis, but if we look at prevention, know the criteria for burnout, and have a system for early detection that alerts us—like, hey, the fact that I can’t sleep isn’t normal, because sleep is crucial for my recovery—that would make a difference.

Of course, if it happens periodically—because there are times in life when everything seems to be falling apart, and yes, stress levels can be very high and various symptoms can arise—that’s one thing. But if a red flag doesn’t go off, like, “Hey, I’ve had a very difficult time at work or in my personal life, I lost someone close, things have piled up,” it doesn’t mean I can just keep going at the same pace.

It means I need to slow down now to recharge the battery that has been so heavily drained. If we do that, we have a much better chance of managing our daily mental well-being. That’s why we need to recognize interventions of varying intensity, so we know, “Okay, do I need a preventive measure?” It never hurts. I believe that even for generations like millennials or boomers who are still in the workforce and doing quite well, it’s worth catching up on this knowledge, and I think there is huge potential for organizations to provide this kind of psychoeducation.

We have interventions focused on building healthy habits and supporting our health, but on the other hand, we also have interventions that help treat those who, for various reasons, have ended up in a difficult place regarding their mental health, which is absolutely valuable and necessary. That’s why I emphasize that it’s not always just psychotherapy. Psychologists also offer counseling, diagnostics, interventions, and much, much more.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Isn’t it the case that today, in many organizations, we’ve essentially passed the “hot potato” of psychological prevention off to HR departments?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Yes.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: So how could we do this better, more intelligently? Without just burdening one professional group with the responsibility for making employees feel better? How can we effectively identify these challenges?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: I think we have areas that are popular right now... “Well-being coach” – I saw a training for that recently. I think we can get lost in 10,000 different titles and specialties.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: I take it the title isn’t the point here?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: I think a good HR department, where at least one or two people have a background in psychology and can be dedicated to managing the quality of life and well-being of employees, is a real “wow” factor. I truly respect organizations that do that.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: So, what are the boundaries of this role? It’s clearly not that of a psychotherapist. This is an employee. If they are also in a leadership position, they carry the responsibility of representing the employer to their team members, for example. Where do the boundaries lie in being, in quotes, a "broadly defined psychologist in an organization"?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: It means you are the psychologist for your organization, not for your people. In other words, you start thinking about what you can do for your team from a managerial and organizational perspective—building a program that doesn't necessarily have to be implemented by your own hands. I mean, as HR, I’m not going to invite everyone into my office for an hour of psychological intervention. Instead, as the person responsible for this area in the company, I will be able to provide the people, tools, space, and resources to enable my employees to access the specific forms of support they need.

Look, in psychology, counseling, or psychotherapy, we try not to mix roles. For example, if we know each other privately, I wouldn't go to you as a psychiatrist, and you wouldn't come to me as a psychotherapist. We try to keep these things separate, if only to maintain a certain level of objectivity and a clean slate—so that "Andrzej the friend" doesn't get mixed up with "Andrzej the patient," and so that I can simply work toward achieving your therapeutic goals.

That is the gold standard and the golden rule, which, of course, can also be applied in an organization. I imagine that the Human Resources department should ensure that people are as well-off at work as possible under the given conditions, which sometimes requires looking into the "messy" zone of problems.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: OK, tell me more about that.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: I have the feeling that more and more of the HR market is turning toward these wellness areas—let’s talk about well-being, but not burnout; let’s talk about meditation, but not psychological intervention. In other words, let’s move in the direction of growth, but let’s avoid looking in the direction of health.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: Problems.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: And I think this is a problem that also puts the individual in a very difficult situation, because more and more people are wondering what is wrong with them if they can't be happy, can't wake up at 5:00 AM, drink matcha, greet the sun, practice gratitude, and then walk an hour to work, be effective at that work, come home, enjoy time with their children, and fall asleep before their head even hits the pillow. Because if you are exhausted, that simply won't happen.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: I understand that this is a matter of organizational culture, because if the culture only promotes—and here we return to that division between positive and negative symptoms—if we only promote quasi-psychological content that serves positive, developmental goals while ignoring or skipping the difficult parts, someone might feel uncertain about whether they can ask for help within their work environment, or feel that it’s difficult to disclose that struggle.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: That I think the moment we start to realize that mental health is just as important as physical health, things will change. I know it’s invisible—when you have a broken leg, you can show an X-ray and say, "Look, it's broken."

But mental health—in my opinion—is visible in the fact that I can't sleep, I can't eat, I can't move, I can't feel joy, I don't want to go out, or my concentration is dropping. These are absolutely tangible signals, but I understand the prevailing belief that "I should just try harder."

Or: "Why can't I do this when everyone else around me can?" Sometimes the thought creeps in: "Is mental health really as real as physical health?" It is—and once we acknowledge how much it weighs on our daily functioning, we’ll be able to look at it more holistically.

I never encourage anyone to perform a personal vivisection or disclose exactly what’s wrong in every environment. It’s always up to that person to decide if and how much they want to share. But when I have an environment where I can come forward and say, "I’m having a hard time for various reasons, my efficiency or engagement level is lower, and I would appreciate the opportunity to be directed toward mental health support," that in itself is a huge step.

Naming your struggle, even in very general terms, and having an organization that can accept that and say, "Yes, we have mental health crises just as we have physical health issues," is something that can truly change a lot within an organization.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Isn't it true that we’re a bit ashamed to ask for help?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Of course we are, but we’re caught in a vicious cycle regarding the stereotypes surrounding mental health that we’ve already discussed. It’s also tied to the often intangible nature of mental health—I don't have an X-ray certificate here to show that my mental health is broken for all to see.

Although, as a psychiatrist, you can surely confirm this. You are a doctor, and your medical certificates are just as valid as those from a cardiologist, a surgeon, or any other specialist. A psychiatric leave is also a form of therapeutic intervention. Meaning, at the moment when…

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: We have an even broader definition. A medical certificate is a temporary declaration of inability to work.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: But that inability to work doesn't mean you aren't mentally strong enough; it means that various events and situations in your life have led you to a state of exhaustion.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Morbidity.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: That you now need to focus on your health in order to return to any other professional functions.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: The evolution of our conversation is incredible because emotions have emerged—difficult emotions, emotions that sit on the negative pole of a polarized battery, the kind that cost us, the kind that take away. Burnout has appeared, depression has appeared. I think anxiety disorders are likely present here as well.

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: So, we’ve arrived at the topic of sick leave. Looking at this from an organizational perspective, could the responsible implementation of psychological support solutions—or even psychology in the workplace in general—serve as a form of HR strategy, or perhaps even go beyond HR to become a core part of organizational culture?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Absolutely. I think it’s hard to imagine a healthy organization that doesn’t prioritize this. When we look at the data on how many employees are on sick leave—regardless of the specific reasons—and consider our overall productivity and efficiency, we have to ask ourselves as an organization: what is actually going on here?

Once we conduct this kind of organizational diagnostic—and again, this isn't about diagnosing every individual employee, but rather asking, "What is happening with my team?"—we have the opportunity to consider a treatment plan. We can essentially take the principles we use in individual therapy and apply them to the structure and organization itself.

The recovery process. We know from research and data what effective remediation strategies look like for specific symptoms. I truly believe that if an organization wants to do its job well, it must take care of the people who work there. It’s impossible to build an effective, high-performing machine without looking after the—as positivist as it may sound—cogs in that machine, because they are the key to the entire organism functioning properly.

Just as we examine equipment when it breaks down to see what stopped working and how to fix it, I think it’s worth looking at your organization and asking "Why?" Not just "What?", but "Why?".

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: If I’m an owner, CEO, or director of an organization, I might think: "Okay, but these psychology initiatives cost money. These will be significant expenses. Is it worth it?"

Dr. Joanna Gutral: I understand, but you have to calculate that in the context of what it costs to have an employee who is forced to take repeated sick leave, or an employee whose well-being is compromised. Their quality of functioning and quality of life directly translate into the quality of the work they perform…

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Presenteeism.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: …and into their level of engagement and satisfaction with where they work. I mean, tell me, have you ever had a job you didn't like?

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: That always happens.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: And have you ever had a job you did like?

Dr. Andrzej Silczuk: Sure.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: And? Did you feel the difference…?

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: That is a significant difference in engagement.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: …going to a place you like, where you feel that what you do is appreciated, where you matter, a team where you can say, "Hey, I need you," and they show up, versus a place you feel completely differently about?

This is quite naturally linked to motivational and social processes as well—we want to cooperate with places and people who want to cooperate with us. And just as organizations often want to be important to their employees, employees want to be important to their organization.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: So, is there some form of economics of well-being, where we can calculate it as an absolutely measurable action that generates money?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: There is a book called "Survival of the Friendliest." I don't remember the author, of course, but it shows that the foundation of our cooperation is kindness toward others. It also has an evolutionary significance for the quality of our functioning, so it acts as a counterweight to the capitalist notion that "survival of the fittest" is the rule. Contrary to appearances, the friendliest survive. That is, those who are able to cooperate with others for the sake of a more important, shared goal.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: Quite recently, I saw the results of a 2024 Deloitte report, a study across many organizations in many countries, where they calculated that investing one euro in well-being solutions focused on psychological and holistic care and employee support yielded a fivefold return.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Well, there you go, pure economics. Why were you questioning me when you have hard data right there?

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: You know, I’m a person who only sees numbers and data in those purely cold skills, and I need the support of someone who can also tell the story beautifully.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: I think that when this well-being support is targeted and appropriate—just like the emotions we were talking about—it will pay off. But if it’s just a band-aid like a "meditation booth" while my organization is in chaos and crisis... That won't pay off.

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: Since we already know that a "yoga pod" doesn't solve our problems, do you have any ideas for good practices?

Joanna Gutral, PhD: I think they start with diagnostics, and that diagnostics starts with listening to your people. I don't have universal advice, but listening to needs—not just complaints, because I think that looking at the Polish culture of complaining, we often like to moan and gripe—but reframing that perspective to "OK, what do you actually need?"—that mapping of needs is the key to creating a plan that helps address those needs to some extent.

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: I recently came up with an idea to find an answer to a question that’s been really bothering me, and since I happen to have an outstanding psychotherapist and psychologist here, I won't miss the chance to ask it. I’ve observed—based on my own reflections, of course—a certain change that we, as adults engaged in work, have lost: the ability to play. Every now and then, we go on team-building trips where we try to act a bit silly, without using alcohol to lower our social anxiety, but we try to have fun. And I thought, looking at small children, how they can lose themselves in play and just be "here and now." What happened, and at what stage do we lose that? Why aren't we able to do it like a 5-year-old who, playing with a pebble or a stick, reads beautiful stories and tells themselves fantastic tales?

Joanna Gutral, PhD: I don't know at what stage. I think it's hard to have the energy for play when there are various obligations, and the "I musts" and "I shoulds" that culture often imposes on us crowd out that space.

And suddenly it turns out that when that to-do list is finally finished, the only thing I dream of is going to sleep. I often work with institutions and companies based in the US. And I remember that when I started such collaborations, a question would often come up: "What do you do for fun?"

And I very often translated it literally into the question we ask in Poland: "What do you do for a living?" And when we ask "What do you do?" in Poland, we usually talk about our profession or job, and they would look at me with such suspicion—"but for fun," meaning for pleasure, for play.

I remember it was a big turning point for me when I didn't know how to answer, because I realized I couldn't remember the last time I did something "for fun." Where nothing came of it—no new skill, no personal development, no wellness, no health—just pure pleasure. And behavior aimed at pleasure, weaving that into a daily schedule, is one of the interventions in treating depression, known as behavioral activation.

Healthy hedonism? Yes. I mean, we won't be able to live for long without that pleasure, because at some point you start wondering: "OK, so why am I doing all this?"  

I mean, I work to have money, to reach some desired moment where I can lead a happy life, but... It's very easy to get lost in this hamster wheel, because it's always more, and more, and more, and more.

And culture conditions us to this a bit, too. I’ve talked about this in the media before—I was once driving behind a bus that had a huge ad for a company offering to come, pick up my laundry, iron it, and bring it back. I thought, "Great, because I have a whole pile of ironing and no time to do it," and then I realized: wait, is everything really okay in my life if I don't even have time to iron?

I received a collaboration proposal from a company that said, "Hey, these are our food products; thanks to them, you'll be able to eat a meal that will keep you full for a few hours in five minutes, and you won't have to cook." And I asked myself: "But is this normal? Is it healthy that I don't have time to cook a meal and eat it with my family?"

Andrzej Silczuk, PhD, DSc: Without mindfulness.

Joanna Gutral, PhD: Without mindfulness, without stopping, without feeling satisfied. These are the very mechanisms that drive us to think, "OK, I have to work more so that some company can iron my clothes and I can eat a meal in five minutes."

That isn't healthy. These are tasks and services that are a response to the ailments of the modern world, but they don't cure those ailments. They actually exacerbate them. And I think it's worth considering, as an experiment, what brings you pleasure. If you don't know, dear listener, this is a good moment to try and find out.

That’s the beauty of it. It’s a hallmark of psychology and psychotherapy that asking questions often stops you right in the moment when something is already happening. We start overthinking it. Plus, we treat people as naive researchers. Meaning, if you don’t know, there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s okay, just give it a try.

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: Exactly – here and now. You don’t know today.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: But you can find out.

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: So, generally speaking, the experience of anxiety stems from not knowing. That connects for us...

Dr. Joanna Gutral: It can stem from not knowing, among other things.

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: OK, I wanted to ask, since the well-being of an employee or an individual translates to the organization as a whole—because if most people on our team take care of themselves in a balanced way, it means they don’t fall into that trap of "I need to have well-being right now, so I’ll reward myself and indulge in pleasure," because those behaviors often come at an unsustainable cost.

But we have people who have found a balanced way to feel good. And now, they are also comfortable with themselves. So the organization functions better, more smoothly, more efficiently, and in a way—there’s that word again—"sustainable." But in this organization, the path to this was that a certain number of people are in psychotherapy. From an employer’s perspective, how do you handle the fact that the people I work with on my team are in therapy?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: How do you handle the fact that the people I work with go to an internist? We just have health, right? If I am a responsible employer, I can ask myself: what is happening that so many of my employees are using psychotherapy? Is it just a coincidence? I mean, did I just happen to hire people who actually have various mental health difficulties?

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: So, chance? It’s more about whether we just happened to end up with such people.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: Let’s remember that mental health difficulties usually have a three-factor etiology: biological, psychological, and environmental aspects. Could it be that in this environmental aspect—the workplace—there is...

Assoc. Prof. Andrzej Silczuk: ...is there uncertainty?

Dr. Joanna Gutral: There is a reason why so many people are turning to psychotherapy. And again, we have various tools that don't necessarily have to interfere with therapy, like surveys, but I am a huge fan of conversations and creating a space where I can say in my organization that something isn't working for me or that I need something else. It’s about thinking, "Okay, what can we do, as one part of this person's life environment, to improve their quality of life?" Now, this is extremely difficult because every coin has two sides.

We have the individual and we have the organization. Of course, the fault can lie anywhere—let's treat it as a continuum. It’s not that the fault lies only at one of the poles. Sometimes it can be a result of certain inconveniences or difficulties in the organizational structure versus the skills, needs, and tools that the individual possesses or lacks. Now, when we are able to confront this—what we can do for you, or what you might need, and maybe we can provide it, like assertiveness training or communication training that will help you get along with us better because we want to get along with you, we generally believe we want to work with you and want to give you the tools that will help you communicate better with us—well, that sounds like a luxury vision of cooperation.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: Yes, but on the other hand, we know this from systemic psychotherapy, where in a couple, one person benefits from the therapeutic process, and the other side starts to feel anxious that some change is happening over which they have no control.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: And it’s a bit like that in these relationships—that control is limited to a certain extent. I mean, do you want to be right, or do you want to have a relationship? Do you want a subordinate, or a collaborator?

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: Nice.

Dr. Joanna Gutral: I assume that people want to cooperate with each other. Of course, this doesn't negate the organization's structure, but if we assume that just as there is empirical cooperation in psychotherapy, there is cooperation in the area the organization deals with, then I want something from you, but I can also give you something so that this cooperation is more symmetrical.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: I was thinking that psychotherapy can also be a form of rehabilitation, like what we know from physical therapy. When someone has back problems and struggles to sit for long periods, if they don't use physiotherapy, at some point they will say, "I'm not able to come to work, I won't be able to attend the meeting in person."

So, plus this psychotherapy/physiotherapy, it won't last a lifetime. Because its goal is to end. Its goal is to teach you how to move, to show you exercises that you can practice on your own so that your injury heals and never returns. Does that mean you won't re-injure yourself at some point and need to come back for a few sessions?

Whether it's psychotherapy, crisis intervention, or psychological counseling... Well, it might happen, but that doesn't negate all the work that was done before. Plus, just because you injured one leg once doesn't mean you won't injure the other one later. And just like in psychotherapy, goals and problem areas can change. Psychotherapy can be undertaken several times, just as it happens with our physical health.

Dr. hab. Andrzej Silczuk: Mental health is health, and mental fitness is also physical fitness. I am very grateful that I could work with you to help demystify the fears of people who might be afraid of psychologists. I felt extremely comfortable with you. Thank you, Joanna, for this conversation. Thank you very much. And I invite you to join us for the next episode soon.

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